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Web Farm Question Messages   Related Types This message was discovered on ASPFriends.com 'aspngbeta' list. Responses highlighted in red are from those people who are likely to be able to contribute good, authoratitive information to this discussion. They include Microsoft employees, MVP's and others who IMHO contribute well to these kinds of discussions. sen kum -- This message, which was originally sent to "aspngdata", has been moved to "aspngbeta" mailing list by the List Master -- This question is about webfarm. How to update an application variable in all webservers[in webfarm] if anyone of webserver's application variable was modified by user. ie i want to synchrnoize the application variable in all the web servers [in webfarm]. i think we are using hardware router. i am not much aware of webfarm configuartion. Any one could explain how to solve the above problem. [As prj in final stage, i dont want to do anything in database side] Thanks in advance __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ Reply to this message...        Thomas Tomiczek (VIP) I would say: NOT AT ALL :-) You will have to rework your application so that it works on a web farm :-) Its about the first of many changes you will have to do :-) Thomas Tomiczek THONA Consulting Ltd. -----Original Message----- From: sen kum [mailto:Click here to reveal e-mail address]=20 Sent: Freitag, 4. Mai 2001 16:00 To: aspngbeta Subject: [aspngbeta] Web Farm Question -- This message, which was originally sent to "aspngdata", has been moved to "aspngbeta" mailing list by the List Master -- This question is about webfarm. How to update an application variable in all webservers[in webfarm] if anyone of webserver's application variable was modified by user. ie i want to synchrnoize the application variable in all the web servers [in webfarm]. i think we are using hardware router. i am not much aware of webfarm configuartion. Any one could explain how to solve the above problem. [As prj in final stage, i dont want to do anything in database side] Thanks in advance __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ | [aspngbeta] member Click here to reveal e-mail address =3D YOUR ID | http://www.asplists.com/asplists/aspngbeta.asp =3D JOIN/QUIT Reply to this message...        Stuart C. Salsbury Sen Kum, To be short: Tom's right. (my longer answer follows the stars below). A possible solution to your problem: use a central database to store anything that needs to be visible to all instances of your app within a web farm. You've stated that you don't want a solution that involves databases because it is too late in the design cycle. This is too bad... You could still use a database to solve your web farm problem (I think)... the database for application state can be totally different from the one for whatever else you're doing. So, assuming that you buy this technique.... You could specify a particular (new) database to hold application state info. Web farms are going to have to rely on some sort of central data storage...it's the nature of the beast... databases are pretty much the way to go here, I think. If anyone has any other ideas, I'm all ears and appreciative. Regards, Stuart Salsbury Ernst & Young LLP (example follows) ****************************************** Generally, web farm apps need to be designed from the ground up as such... or, to say the same thing differently, usually you need to think about web farm issues from the get-go if you plan to deploy an app on a web farm with no logic/threading errors and good performance. There are some good design principles that will help you create sites that are not only farm-compatible but farm-intelligent: * keep away from sessions altogether if possible, but if necessary, use sql-server based session state; * keep away from anything that forces you to presume the server name and/or application name when processing requests... you'll probably have to do some fancy footwork to get the URLs to be graceful and efficient in your code. It's possible to design your site to get what the previous suggestions seem to preclude... you just have to work for it... for starters, use the application state (Context.Application["myObject"] to store stuff, but use it carefullly... when you store things in application state, recognize that they aren't shared accross the web farm, rather they are specific to the particular server that exeuctes that code and the particular application in which your code is running. App state is particularly suited to the lazy-load style of configuration, where you set up a property that first tries to find the answer in its cache, but if it hasn't already been loaded, tries to find the answer from source. Each web farm web app instance has to take care of itself and can do (pretty much)nothing to help other application instances in the farm. As far as I understand, .net helps with this challenge because session state is easily stored in a database (a 3rd tier database server that serves all of the web servers in a web farm). After that, I think you are on your own, but I bet that others have some suggestions as to how else to battle the stateless/stateful paradox of web sites/farms. To repeat Tom's message, usually you need to think about web farm consequences up front before you design a site or else you're bound to make some artitechtural decisions that make farming difficult. Ho, ho, ho.... (my farming (not funny)joke) Regards, Stuart Salsbury Ernst & Young LLP -----Original Message----- From: Thomas Tomiczek [mailto:Click here to reveal e-mail address] Sent: Friday, May 04, 2001 12:04 PM To: aspngbeta Subject: [aspngbeta] RE: Web Farm Question I would say: NOT AT ALL :-) You will have to rework your application so that it works on a web farm :-) Its about the first of many changes you will have to do :-) Thomas Tomiczek THONA Consulting Ltd. -----Original Message----- From: sen kum [mailto:Click here to reveal e-mail address] Sent: Freitag, 4. Mai 2001 16:00 To: aspngbeta Subject: [aspngbeta] Web Farm Question -- This message, which was originally sent to "aspngdata", has been moved to "aspngbeta" mailing list by the List Master -- This question is about webfarm. How to update an application variable in all webservers[in webfarm] if anyone of webserver's application variable was modified by user. ie i want to synchrnoize the application variable in all the web servers [in webfarm]. i think we are using hardware router. i am not much aware of webfarm configuartion. Any one could explain how to solve the above problem. [As prj in final stage, i dont want to do anything in database side] Thanks in advance Reply to this message...        Mohamed Fathey Abdel Fattah     Why not using XML storage based files?             Regards,                 Mohamed -----Original Message----- From: Stuart C. Salsbury [mailto:Click here to reveal e-mail address] Sent: Saturday, May 05, 2001 11:58 PM To: aspngbeta Subject: [aspngbeta] RE: Web Farm Question Sen Kum, To be short: Tom's right. (my longer answer follows the stars below). A possible solution to your problem: use a central database to store anything that needs to be visible to all instances of your app within a web farm. You've stated that you don't want a solution that involves databases because it is too late in the design cycle. This is too bad... You could still use a database to solve your web farm problem (I think)... the database for application state can be totally different from the one for whatever else you're doing. So, assuming that you buy this technique.... You could specify a particular (new) database to hold application state info. Web farms are going to have to rely on some sort of central data storage...it's the nature of the beast... databases are pretty much the way to go here, I think. If anyone has any other ideas, I'm all ears and appreciative. Regards, Stuart Salsbury Ernst & Young LLP (example follows) ****************************************** Generally, web farm apps need to be designed from the ground up as such... or, to say the same thing differently, usually you need to think about web farm issues from the get-go if you plan to deploy an app on a web farm with no logic/threading errors and good performance. There are some good design principles that will help you create sites that are not only farm-compatible but farm-intelligent: * keep away from sessions altogether if possible, but if necessary, use sql-server based session state; * keep away from anything that forces you to presume the server name and/or application name when processing requests... you'll probably have to do some fancy footwork to get the URLs to be graceful and efficient in your code. It's possible to design your site to get what the previous suggestions seem to preclude... you just have to work for it... for starters, use the application state (Context.Application["myObject"] to store stuff, but use it carefullly... when you store things in application state, recognize that they aren't shared accross the web farm, rather they are specific to the particular server that exeuctes that code and the particular application in which your code is running. App state is particularly suited to the lazy-load style of configuration, where you set up a property that first tries to find the answer in its cache, but if it hasn't already been loaded, tries to find the answer from source. Each web farm web app instance has to take care of itself and can do (pretty much)nothing to help other application instances in the farm. As far as I understand, .net helps with this challenge because session state is easily stored in a database (a 3rd tier database server that serves all of the web servers in a web farm). After that, I think you are on your own, but I bet that others have some suggestions as to how else to battle the stateless/stateful paradox of web sites/farms. To repeat Tom's message, usually you need to think about web farm consequences up front before you design a site or else you're bound to make some artitechtural decisions that make farming difficult. Ho, ho, ho.... (my farming (not funny)joke) Regards, Stuart Salsbury Ernst & Young LLP -----Original Message----- From: Thomas Tomiczek [mailto:Click here to reveal e-mail address] Sent: Friday, May 04, 2001 12:04 PM To: aspngbeta Subject: [aspngbeta] RE: Web Farm Question I would say: NOT AT ALL :-) You will have to rework your application so that it works on a web farm :-) Its about the first of many changes you will have to do :-) Thomas Tomiczek THONA Consulting Ltd. -----Original Message----- From: sen kum [mailto:Click here to reveal e-mail address] Sent: Freitag, 4. Mai 2001 16:00 To: aspngbeta Subject: [aspngbeta] Web Farm Question -- This message, which was originally sent to "aspngdata", has been moved to "aspngbeta" mailing list by the List Master -- This question is about webfarm. How to update an application variable in all webservers[in webfarm] if anyone of webserver's application variable was modified by user. ie i want to synchrnoize the application variable in all the web servers [in webfarm]. i think we are using hardware router. i am not much aware of webfarm configuartion. Any one could explain how to solve the above problem. [As prj in final stage, i dont want to do anything in database side] Thanks in advance | [aspngbeta] member Click here to reveal e-mail address = YOUR ID | http://www.asplists.com/asplists/aspngbeta.asp = JOIN/QUIT Reply to this message...        Jennings, Andy You could create a web service that would act like a client server to update the application variables on each machine. You could use Microsoft Message Queue and implement something similar. I have considered this as well but you have to weigh the performance cost of updating the application state on each server with whatever operation you are trying to cache. Andy -----Original Message----- From: Mohamed Fathey Abdel Fattah [mailto:Click here to reveal e-mail address] Sent: Monday, May 07, 2001 1:00 AM To: aspngbeta Subject: [aspngbeta] RE: Web Farm Question     Why not using XML storage based files?             Regards,                 Mohamed -----Original Message----- From: Stuart C. Salsbury [mailto:Click here to reveal e-mail address] Sent: Saturday, May 05, 2001 11:58 PM To: aspngbeta Subject: [aspngbeta] RE: Web Farm Question Sen Kum, To be short: Tom's right. (my longer answer follows the stars below). A possible solution to your problem: use a central database to store anything that needs to be visible to all instances of your app within a web farm. You've stated that you don't want a solution that involves databases because it is too late in the design cycle. This is too bad... You could still use a database to solve your web farm problem (I think)... the database for application state can be totally different from the one for whatever else you're doing. So, assuming that you buy this technique.... You could specify a particular (new) database to hold application state info. Web farms are going to have to rely on some sort of central data storage...it's the nature of the beast... databases are pretty much the way to go here, I think. If anyone has any other ideas, I'm all ears and appreciative. Regards, Stuart Salsbury Ernst & Young LLP (example follows) ****************************************** Generally, web farm apps need to be designed from the ground up as such... or, to say the same thing differently, usually you need to think about web farm issues from the get-go if you plan to deploy an app on a web farm with no logic/threading errors and good performance. There are some good design principles that will help you create sites that are not only farm-compatible but farm-intelligent: * keep away from sessions altogether if possible, but if necessary, use sql-server based session state; * keep away from anything that forces you to presume the server name and/or application name when processing requests... you'll probably have to do some fancy footwork to get the URLs to be graceful and efficient in your code. It's possible to design your site to get what the previous suggestions seem to preclude... you just have to work for it... for starters, use the application state (Context.Application["myObject"] to store stuff, but use it carefullly... when you store things in application state, recognize that they aren't shared accross the web farm, rather they are specific to the particular server that exeuctes that code and the particular application in which your code is running. App state is particularly suited to the lazy-load style of configuration, where you set up a property that first tries to find the answer in its cache, but if it hasn't already been loaded, tries to find the answer from source. Each web farm web app instance has to take care of itself and can do (pretty much)nothing to help other application instances in the farm. As far as I understand, .net helps with this challenge because session state is easily stored in a database (a 3rd tier database server that serves all of the web servers in a web farm). After that, I think you are on your own, but I bet that others have some suggestions as to how else to battle the stateless/stateful paradox of web sites/farms. To repeat Tom's message, usually you need to think about web farm consequences up front before you design a site or else you're bound to make some artitechtural decisions that make farming difficult. Ho, ho, ho.... (my farming (not funny)joke) Regards, Stuart Salsbury Ernst & Young LLP -----Original Message----- From: Thomas Tomiczek [mailto:Click here to reveal e-mail address] Sent: Friday, May 04, 2001 12:04 PM To: aspngbeta Subject: [aspngbeta] RE: Web Farm Question I would say: NOT AT ALL :-) You will have to rework your application so that it works on a web farm :-) Its about the first of many changes you will have to do :-) Thomas Tomiczek THONA Consulting Ltd. -----Original Message----- From: sen kum [mailto:Click here to reveal e-mail address] Sent: Freitag, 4. Mai 2001 16:00 To: aspngbeta Subject: [aspngbeta] Web Farm Question -- This message, which was originally sent to "aspngdata", has been moved to "aspngbeta" mailing list by the List Master -- This question is about webfarm. How to update an application variable in all webservers[in webfarm] if anyone of webserver's application variable was modified by user. ie i want to synchrnoize the application variable in all the web servers [in webfarm]. i think we are using hardware router. i am not much aware of webfarm configuartion. Any one could explain how to solve the above problem. [As prj in final stage, i dont want to do anything in database side] Thanks in advance | [aspngbeta] member Click here to reveal e-mail address = YOUR ID | http://www.asplists.com/asplists/aspngbeta.asp = JOIN/QUIT | [aspngbeta] member Click here to reveal e-mail address = YOUR ID | http://www.asplists.com/asplists/aspngbeta.asp = JOIN/QUIT Reply to this message...        Thomas Tomiczek (VIP) BAD. Don't forget that the pplication propably assumes: (a) no concurrent changes and (b) changes in effect immediately. (c) what about lock/unlock on the application object, or synchronizing? Thomas Tomiczek THONA Consulting Ltd. -----Original Message----- From: Jennings, Andy [mailto:Click here to reveal e-mail address]=20 Sent: Montag, 7. Mai 2001 13:10 To: aspngbeta Subject: [aspngbeta] RE: Web Farm Question You could create a web service that would act like a client server to update the application variables on each machine. You could use Microsoft Message Queue and implement something similar. I have considered this as well but you have to weigh the performance cost of updating the application state on each server with whatever operation you are trying to cache. Andy -----Original Message----- From: Mohamed Fathey Abdel Fattah [mailto:Click here to reveal e-mail address] Sent: Monday, May 07, 2001 1:00 AM To: aspngbeta Subject: [aspngbeta] RE: Web Farm Question     Why not using XML storage based files?             Regards,                 Mohamed -----Original Message----- From: Stuart C. Salsbury [mailto:Click here to reveal e-mail address] Sent: Saturday, May 05, 2001 11:58 PM To: aspngbeta Subject: [aspngbeta] RE: Web Farm Question Sen Kum, To be short: Tom's right. (my longer answer follows the stars below). A possible solution to your problem: use a central database to store anything that needs to be visible to all instances of your app within a web farm. You've stated that you don't want a solution that involves databases because it is too late in the design cycle. This is too bad... You could still use a database to solve your web farm problem (I think)... the database for application state can be totally different from the one for whatever else you're doing. So, assuming that you buy this technique.... You could specify a particular (new) database to hold application state info. Web farms are going to have to rely on some sort of central data storage...it's the nature of the beast... databases are pretty much the way to go here, I think. If anyone has any other ideas, I'm all ears and appreciative. Regards, Stuart Salsbury Ernst & Young LLP (example follows) ****************************************** Generally, web farm apps need to be designed from the ground up as such... or, to say the same thing differently, usually you need to think about web farm issues from the get-go if you plan to deploy an app on a web farm with no logic/threading errors and good performance. There are some good design principles that will help you create sites that are not only farm-compatible but farm-intelligent: * keep away from sessions altogether if possible, but if necessary, use sql-server based session state; * keep away from anything that forces you to presume the server name and/or application name when processing requests... you'll probably have to do some fancy footwork to get the URLs to be graceful and efficient in your code. It's possible to design your site to get what the previous suggestions seem to preclude... you just have to work for it... for starters, use the application state (Context.Application["myObject"] to store stuff, but use it carefullly... when you store things in application state, recognize that they aren't shared accross the web farm, rather they are specific to the particular server that exeuctes that code and the particular application in which your code is running. App state is particularly suited to the lazy-load style of configuration, where you set up a property that first tries to find the answer in its cache, but if it hasn't already been loaded, tries to find the answer from source. Each web farm web app instance has to take care of itself and can do (pretty much)nothing to help other application instances in the farm. As far as I understand, .net helps with this challenge because session state is easily stored in a database (a 3rd tier database server that serves all of the web servers in a web farm). After that, I think you are on your own, but I bet that others have some suggestions as to how else to battle the stateless/stateful paradox of web sites/farms. To repeat Tom's message, usually you need to think about web farm consequences up front before you design a site or else you're bound to make some artitechtural decisions that make farming difficult. Ho, ho, ho.... (my farming (not funny)joke) Regards, Stuart Salsbury Ernst & Young LLP -----Original Message----- From: Thomas Tomiczek [mailto:Click here to reveal e-mail address] Sent: Friday, May 04, 2001 12:04 PM To: aspngbeta Subject: [aspngbeta] RE: Web Farm Question I would say: NOT AT ALL :-) You will have to rework your application so that it works on a web farm :-) Its about the first of many changes you will have to do :-) Thomas Tomiczek THONA Consulting Ltd. -----Original Message----- From: sen kum [mailto:Click here to reveal e-mail address] Sent: Freitag, 4. Mai 2001 16:00 To: aspngbeta Subject: [aspngbeta] Web Farm Question -- This message, which was originally sent to "aspngdata", has been moved to "aspngbeta" mailing list by the List Master -- This question is about webfarm. How to update an application variable in all webservers[in webfarm] if anyone of webserver's application variable was modified by user. ie i want to synchrnoize the application variable in all the web servers [in webfarm]. i think we are using hardware router. i am not much aware of webfarm configuartion. Any one could explain how to solve the above problem. [As prj in final stage, i dont want to do anything in database side] Thanks in advance | [aspngbeta] member Click here to reveal e-mail address =3D YOUR ID | http://www.asplists.com/asplists/aspngbeta.asp =3D JOIN/QUIT | [aspngbeta] member Click here to reveal e-mail address =3D YOUR ID | http://www.asplists.com/asplists/aspngbeta.asp =3D JOIN/QUIT | [aspngbeta] member Click here to reveal e-mail address =3D YOUR ID | http://www.asplists.com/asplists/aspngbeta.asp =3D JOIN/QUIT Reply to this message...     System.Runtime.Remoting.Contexts.Context Ad MBR BootFX Best-of-breed application framework for .NET projects, developed by Matthew Baxter-Reynolds and MBR IT

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