MBR IT/.NET 247 : future browser support on ASPFriends.com 'aspngrichtextbox' list

future browser support

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This message was discovered on ASPFriends.com 'aspngrichtextbox' list.
Responses highlighted in red are from those people who are likely to be able to contribute good, authoratitive information to this discussion. They include Microsoft employees, MVP's and others who IMHO contribute well to these kinds of discussions.

James Shaw (VIP)

Ollie,

Originally I wasn't too bothered by the IE-only support that your component offers, but hearing the AOL/Mozilla news it becomes more of an issue - or does it? Has anyone tested the behavior in Mozilla?

Your site says this:

a.. Microsoft Internet Explorer 5.0 or later (for rich-text editing)
a.. Any HTML3.2 browser (for editing document as HTML)
a.. JavaScript must be enabled (for richtext editing)

But it would be very useful if you could be more specific. For example, isn't Opera 6 an IE 5 clone? You don't say IE 5 *compatible* so I'm left wondering. Of course I could fire up all these browsers and check, but I figured you've already done that work.

Lastly, what's the recommended way for us to detect that you are in downgraded HTML mode? I'd like to add some text to my page explaining to the user, and I'd rather use a method you expose (IsDownlevel?) than roll my own using the user-agent since I'll have to update my code as you enhance your support.

Thanks.

James Shaw
http://CoverYourASP.com/
Download it. Run it. Learn it.
http://ASPRSS.com/
Publish ASP with RSS XML

Reply to this message...

Ollie Cornes

Hi James,

RichTextBox relies on Internet Explorer's ability to make any HTML element
editable, a technology Microsoft calls MSHTML. The configuration RichTextBox
uses requires IE5.0+ only. Rich-text editing does not work in Opera, or
Mozilla, although the control degrades nicely to a textarea (or to a
warning, or to displaying the document HTML - you can configure it). This is
simply because Opera, Netscape and Mozilla do not support the ability to
make objects editable.

I do not believe it is possible with current technologies to build editors
like this without either MSHTML (IE) or a plugin/java. But with many sites
seeing 90% of traffic from IE I think there's a market for a product that's
as easy to install/use as RichTextBox. It is not all things to all men -
it's a great editor because it's easy to get it running and easy to use. But
if you need 100% rich-text editing across multiple browsers, you will
probably need a more complex (and more expensive) product.

Currently you can either have:
- A lightweight editor like RichTextBox that does rich-text editing in
IE5.0+
OR
- A plugin/java solution that provides the same in more browsers, but at a
price and with the deployment/download issues.

I think the likes of Mozilla and Opera would do well to follow Microsoft's
lead and implement this HTML editing functionality. It's time to move past
the textarea and natively support MSHTML-type functionality across the board
in a standards compliant fashion.

IsDownlevel is an interesting idea for a property, I've added that to the
wishlist. I agree that it makes sense to expose that information so that you
can display a message to visitors using Mozilla, etc. At the moment the
browser check that RichTextBox performs is for IE5.0+ and for the Win32
platform.

Ollie
--
http://www.richtextbox.com/

-----Original Message-----
From: Click here to reveal e-mail address
[mailto:Click here to reveal e-mail address]On Behalf Of James
Shaw
Sent: 12 June 2002 13:50
To: aspngrichtextbox
Subject: [aspngrichtextbox] future browser support

Ollie,

Originally I wasn't too bothered by the IE-only support that your
component offers, but hearing the AOL/Mozilla news it becomes more of an
issue - or does it? Has anyone tested the behavior in Mozilla?

Your site says this:

a.. Microsoft Internet Explorer 5.0 or later (for rich-text editing)
a.. Any HTML3.2 browser (for editing document as HTML)
a.. JavaScript must be enabled (for richtext editing)

But it would be very useful if you could be more specific. For example,
isn't Opera 6 an IE 5 clone? You don't say IE 5 *compatible* so I'm left
wondering. Of course I could fire up all these browsers and check, but I
figured you've already done that work.

Lastly, what's the recommended way for us to detect that you are in
downgraded HTML mode? I'd like to add some text to my page explaining to the
user, and I'd rather use a method you expose (IsDownlevel?) than roll my own
using the user-agent since I'll have to update my code as you enhance your
support.

Thanks.

James Shaw
http://CoverYourASP.com/
Download it. Run it. Learn it.
http://ASPRSS.com/
Publish ASP with RSS XML
| [aspngrichtextbox] member Click here to reveal e-mail address = YOUR ID |
http://www.aspfriends.com/aspfriends/aspngrichtextbox.asp = JOIN/QUIT

Reply to this message...

James Shaw (VIP)

Thanks Ollie, that explains it perfectly. I'm so used to IE5 meaning IE5 compatible, and I've never heard of MSHTML. But that's why I bought your component: so I don't have to worry!

Jeez, I am worried about AOL though. That's a large chunk of the market using non IE, and precisely the market I'm aiming the site that's using RTB at - simple home users that will be sucked into AOL's marketing.

I did look at a Java implementation recently, and it was beautiful and completely useless at the same time. My users wouldn't be able to or wouldn't want to install it. It was a nightmare of downloads/security warnings and general flash-bang-wallop that made me dizzy. The best I've seen yet, without a doubt, is VistaPrint's technology for creating business cards etc online. If there was a download I didn't notice it, and it's a lovely product. I have no idea how they did it though, and of course it's not for sale. ;-)

Please let us all know when/if you think of any way to improve the Mozilla experience.

James Shaw
http://CoverYourASP.com/
Download it. Run it. Learn it.
http://ASPRSS.com/
Publish ASP with RSS XML
----- Original Message -----
From: Ollie Cornes
To: aspngrichtextbox
Sent: Wednesday, June 12, 2002 9:15 AM
Subject: [aspngrichtextbox] RE: future browser support

Hi James,

RichTextBox relies on Internet Explorer's ability to make any HTML element editable, a technology Microsoft calls MSHTML. The configuration RichTextBox uses requires IE5.0+ only. Rich-text editing does not work in Opera, or Mozilla, although the control degrades nicely to a textarea (or to a warning, or to displaying the document HTML - you can configure it). This is simply because Opera, Netscape and Mozilla do not support the ability to make objects editable.

I do not believe it is possible with current technologies to build editors like this without either MSHTML (IE) or a plugin/java. But with many sites seeing 90% of traffic from IE I think there's a market for a product that's as easy to install/use as RichTextBox. It is not all things to all men - it's a great editor because it's easy to get it running and easy to use. But if you need 100% rich-text editing across multiple browsers, you will probably need a more complex (and more expensive) product.

Currently you can either have:
- A lightweight editor like RichTextBox that does rich-text editing in IE5.0+
OR
- A plugin/java solution that provides the same in more browsers, but at a price and with the deployment/download issues.

I think the likes of Mozilla and Opera would do well to follow Microsoft's lead and implement this HTML editing functionality. It's time to move past the textarea and natively support MSHTML-type functionality across the board in a standards compliant fashion.

IsDownlevel is an interesting idea for a property, I've added that to the wishlist. I agree that it makes sense to expose that information so that you can display a message to visitors using Mozilla, etc. At the moment the browser check that RichTextBox performs is for IE5.0+ and for the Win32 platform.

Ollie
--
http://www.richtextbox.com/

-----Original Message-----
From: Click here to reveal e-mail address [mailto:Click here to reveal e-mail address]On Behalf Of James Shaw
Sent: 12 June 2002 13:50
To: aspngrichtextbox
Subject: [aspngrichtextbox] future browser support

Ollie,

Originally I wasn't too bothered by the IE-only support that your component offers, but hearing the AOL/Mozilla news it becomes more of an issue - or does it? Has anyone tested the behavior in Mozilla?

Your site says this:

a.. Microsoft Internet Explorer 5.0 or later (for rich-text editing)
a.. Any HTML3.2 browser (for editing document as HTML)
a.. JavaScript must be enabled (for richtext editing)

But it would be very useful if you could be more specific. For example, isn't Opera 6 an IE 5 clone? You don't say IE 5 *compatible* so I'm left wondering. Of course I could fire up all these browsers and check, but I figured you've already done that work.

Lastly, what's the recommended way for us to detect that you are in downgraded HTML mode? I'd like to add some text to my page explaining to the user, and I'd rather use a method you expose (IsDownlevel?) than roll my own using the user-agent since I'll have to update my code as you enhance your support.

Thanks.

James Shaw
http://CoverYourASP.com/
Download it. Run it. Learn it.
http://ASPRSS.com/
Publish ASP with RSS XML
| [aspngrichtextbox] member Click here to reveal e-mail address = YOUR ID | http://www.aspfriends.com/aspfriends/aspngrichtextbox.asp = JOIN/QUIT
| [aspngrichtextbox] member Click here to reveal e-mail address = YOUR ID | http://www.aspfriends.com/aspfriends/aspngrichtextbox.asp = JOIN/QUIT

Reply to this message...

ToddC@match.com

I recent survey (sorry don't remember the source) said that 40% of AOL users
plan to leave in the next year.

Changing to a funky browser may speed it up...

tc

-----Original Message-----
From: James Shaw [mailto:Click here to reveal e-mail address]

Thanks Ollie, that explains it perfectly. I'm so used to IE5 meaning IE5
compatible, and I've never heard of MSHTML. But that's why I bought your
component: so I don't have to worry!

Jeez, I am worried about AOL though. That's a large chunk of the market
using non IE, and precisely the market I'm aiming the site that's using RTB
at - simple home users that will be sucked into AOL's marketing.

I did look at a Java implementation recently, and it was beautiful and
completely useless at the same time. My users wouldn't be able to or
wouldn't want to install it. It was a nightmare of downloads/security
warnings and general flash-bang-wallop that made me dizzy. The best I've
seen yet, without a doubt, is VistaPrint's technology for creating business
cards etc online. If there was a download I didn't notice it, and it's a
lovely product. I have no idea how they did it though, and of course it's
not for sale. ;-)

Please let us all know when/if you think of any way to improve the Mozilla
experience.

James Shaw
http://CoverYourASP.com/
Download it. Run it. Learn it.
http://ASPRSS.com/
Publish ASP with RSS XML
----- Original Message -----
From: Ollie Cornes
To: aspngrichtextbox
Sent: Wednesday, June 12, 2002 9:15 AM
Subject: [aspngrichtextbox] RE: future browser support

Hi James,

RichTextBox relies on Internet Explorer's ability to make any HTML element
editable, a technology Microsoft calls MSHTML. The configuration RichTextBox
uses requires IE5.0+ only. Rich-text editing does not work in Opera, or
Mozilla, although the control degrades nicely to a textarea (or to a
warning, or to displaying the document HTML - you can configure it). This is
simply because Opera, Netscape and Mozilla do not support the ability to
make objects editable.

I do not believe it is possible with current technologies to build editors
like this without either MSHTML (IE) or a plugin/java. But with many sites
seeing 90% of traffic from IE I think there's a market for a product that's
as easy to install/use as RichTextBox. It is not all things to all men -
it's a great editor because it's easy to get it running and easy to use. But
if you need 100% rich-text editing across multiple browsers, you will
probably need a more complex (and more expensive) product.

Currently you can either have:
- A lightweight editor like RichTextBox that does rich-text editing in
IE5.0+
OR
- A plugin/java solution that provides the same in more browsers, but at a
price and with the deployment/download issues.

I think the likes of Mozilla and Opera would do well to follow Microsoft's
lead and implement this HTML editing functionality. It's time to move past
the textarea and natively support MSHTML-type functionality across the board
in a standards compliant fashion.

IsDownlevel is an interesting idea for a property, I've added that to the
wishlist. I agree that it makes sense to expose that information so that you
can display a message to visitors using Mozilla, etc. At the moment the
browser check that RichTextBox performs is for IE5.0+ and for the Win32
platform.

Ollie
--
http://www.richtextbox.com/

-----Original Message-----
From: Click here to reveal e-mail address
[mailto:Click here to reveal e-mail address]On Behalf Of James
Shaw
Sent: 12 June 2002 13:50
To: aspngrichtextbox
Subject: [aspngrichtextbox] future browser support
Ollie,

Originally I wasn't too bothered by the IE-only support that your component
offers, but hearing the AOL/Mozilla news it becomes more of an issue - or
does it? Has anyone tested the behavior in Mozilla?

Your site says this:

* Microsoft Internet Explorer 5.0 or later (for rich-text editing)
* Any HTML3.2 browser (for editing document as HTML)
* JavaScript must be enabled (for richtext editing)

But it would be very useful if you could be more specific. For example,
isn't Opera 6 an IE 5 clone? You don't say IE 5 *compatible* so I'm left
wondering. Of course I could fire up all these browsers and check, but I
figured you've already done that work.

Lastly, what's the recommended way for us to detect that you are in
downgraded HTML mode? I'd like to add some text to my page explaining to the
user, and I'd rather use a method you expose (IsDownlevel?) than roll my own
using the user-agent since I'll have to update my code as you enhance your
support.

Thanks.

James Shaw
http://CoverYourASP.com/
Download it. Run it. Learn it.
http://ASPRSS.com/
Publish ASP with RSS XML
| [aspngrichtextbox] member Click here to reveal e-mail address = YOUR ID |
http://www.aspfriends.com/aspfriends/aspngrichtextbox.asp = JOIN/QUIT
| [aspngrichtextbox] member Click here to reveal e-mail address = YOUR ID |
http://www.aspfriends.com/aspfriends/aspngrichtextbox.asp = JOIN/QUIT
| [aspngrichtextbox] member Click here to reveal e-mail address = YOUR ID |
http://www.aspfriends.com/aspfriends/aspngrichtextbox.asp = JOIN/QUIT

Reply to this message...

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