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| C-sharp demand on par with Assembler - Apache releases a Java app server (Re: Skills in most demand) |
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Related Types |
This message was discovered on microsoft.public.dotnet.languages.vb.
Responses highlighted in red are from those people who are likely to be able to contribute good, authoratitive information to this discussion. They include Microsoft employees, MVP's and others who IMHO contribute well to these kinds of discussions.
| asj |
Actually, I did not notice that...C-sharp is about as in demand as
Assembler...how humiliating after all the hype!
Hehehe....
http://mshiltonj.com/sm/categories/languages/
And with Apache releasing its own Java app server, the demand for open
source Java developers continues to grow!
http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/040601/latu089_1.html
Why remain in the Microsoft treadmill when you can be part of the
fastest growing platform in history?
http://www.angrycoder.com/article.aspx?cid=1&y=2003&m=7&d=17
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| Hot Tamales ! |
On Tue, 01 Jun 2004 14:04:42 -0700, asj wrote:
[Original message clipped]
As much as *programmers* want stability in the tools, the customer, is
happy to watch the skill set erode with the delivery of simpler tools,
application servers, off-the-shelf and web based products ( to say nothing
of server blades, and other *utility* based IT ).
Like offshoring, these things make the cost of IT much lower for the
customer and bring down programmers fees to that of the average American.
Is it a big mistake ?
Should programmers be paid like customer service
representatives rather than demigods ?
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| Hamilcar Barca |
In article <Click here to reveal e-mail address> (Tue, 01
Jun 2004 22:15:40 +0000), Hot Tamales ! wrote:
[Original message clipped]
"Do not meddle in the affairs of wizards
for they are subtle and quick to anger."
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| asj |
Hot Tamales ! <Click here to reveal e-mail address> wrote in message news:<Click here to reveal e-mail address>...
[Original message clipped]
How exactly does having to relearn new skills and tools make things
cheaper for the customer? I would think retraining costs a lot of
money, and of course, programmers having to relearn an entire new
language means all the past experience and skills they have become
obsolete - they start out just like all the new younger programmers
coming up.
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| Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz |
begin In <Click here to reveal e-mail address>, on
06/01/2004
at 07:40 PM, Click here to reveal e-mail address (asj) said:
[Original message clipped]
The Devil is in the details. Some tools make things less expensive,
some tools make things more expensive and of lesser quality, and some
tools are neutral.
[Original message clipped]
Only if they had never acquired competency in the first place.
Learning a programming language is only a small part of programming
well in that language, and a lot of important experience and skills is
language independent. Of course, Sturgeon's law applies, and there are
a lot of hack coders out there, but don't stake too much on the
quality of their work on the languages that they already know.
--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz, SysProg and JOAT
Unsolicited bulk E-mail will be subject to legal action. I reserve
the right to publicly post or ridicule any abusive E-mail.
Reply to domain Patriot dot net user shmuel+news to contact me. Do
not reply to Click here to reveal e-mail address
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| Jörn W. Janneck |
Hot Tamales ! wrote:
[snip]
[Original message clipped]
if you want your average programmer to be as qualified as your average
customer service representative, sure.
of course, we would then sit in a fly-by-wire 777 whose control software was
designed by someone who learned programming during a weekend seminar.
you go first. ;-)
-- j
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| Jeff Relf |
Hi Jörn W. Janneck,
Re: Low paid programmers.
You joked,
" if you want your average programmer
to be as qualified as your average
customer service representative, sure.
of course, we would then sit in a fly-by-wire 777
whose control software was designed by
someone who learned programming during a weekend seminar.
you go first. ;-) "
I've worked at Boeing's South Seattle plant.
( And my dad did too, for 14 years, 1957 - 1971.
Tool and die ... drawing stuff )
You were closer to the truth than you might imagine.
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| Jörn W. Janneck |
Jeff Relf wrote:
[Original message clipped]
dang. i'll try to forget this before the next flight... 8-)
-- j
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| Hot Tamales ! |
On Tue, 01 Jun 2004 17:02:37 -0700, Jörn W. Janneck wrote:
[Original message clipped]
Are most programmers really that 'qualified'
I think there are a lot of *fakers* amoung us...
[Original message clipped]
You miss my point.
What I'm saying is that with sophisticated platforms like .NET with
automatic garbage collection, we can substitute a lot of low paid
programmers, ala India, for a few high paid programmers.
So, the job no longer requires quite the twists and turns of what was
needed in the past, just a lot of reasonably competent people.
So, a .NET fly by wire, writen in Advanced XML, would require a lot of
$55,000 a year people, to basically make sure there were enough try/catch
blocks to insure stability.
But nobody would have to worry about null pointers, for instance, so why
pay big bucks ?
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| thad01@dexter.glaci.com |
In comp.os.linux.advocacy Hot Tamales ! <Click here to reveal e-mail address> wrote:
[Original message clipped]
Unfortunately, the aerospace industry is not compatible with that
plan. To gain approval for installing a new piece of hardware/software
in a commercial airplane requires an exhaustive certification process
(do a google search on DO178B certification). For software, this
means requirement and design documents, gazillions of test cases,
code coverage analysis, etc... for every line of code including the
libraries and tools. This certification process is often 10 times
the effort of writing the software. Obviously, this creates an
incentive to keep the software as lean as possible (i.e. no bloated
OO tool-kits). It is interesting to note that a few embedded
software companies make there living selling very expensive
pre-certified operating systems exactly because it is such a pain
in the *ss to go through the certification process.
It is also why MS software will have a hard time finding its way onto
flight critical systems. You first of all would need access to the
source code, the time and money to put it through the certification
process (ouch), and the ability to make changes to the code base
when components fail certification. This is why Linux is much more
popular for many embedded applications. The source code is available
without expensive license fees, and the modular unix-like design
makes it easier to trim down to the bare minimums.
I'm currently working on an embedded computer system for planes
like the 777 (google on Boeing EFB). Unlike earlier fixed function
instruments, this unit is designed to have new applications loaded on
it over time. Of course any flight critical apps still need to go
through certification, and this would preclude a purely MS Windows
solution. The answer was to design a Linux/Windows hybrid; basically
two computers on one board with the Linux side acting as the firewall
between Windows and the airplane. Flight critical apps (like anything
that shows a moving map) are required to run on the Linux side. It
is actually a rather unique design.
http://www.aviationtoday.com/cgi/av/show_mag.cgi?pub=av&mon=0903&file=0903efb.htm
Cheers!
--
Thad Phetteplace - GLACI, Inc.
http://www.GridSlammer.org - An open source video game toolkit
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| Jeff Relf |
Hi Click here to reveal e-mail address,
Re: Certifying flight critical apps.
You commented,
" Obviously, this creates an incentive
to keep the software as lean as possible
( i.e. no bloated OO tool-kits ). "
That's were Linux really shines, thanks for that story.
I love lean and mean code.
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| Joe Jitsu |
Jeff Relf wrote:
[Original message clipped]
Then why not keep everything to a minimum, with c#/mono ?
Mono is going to be on every desktop, everywhere worldwide.
Why not build on an installed based of assemblies, rather
than porting libraries around, like a caveman toting water
on the backs of his oxen?
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| The Ghost In The Machine |
In comp.lang.java.advocacy, Joe Jitsu
<Click here to reveal e-mail addressga>
wrote
on Thu, 03 Jun 2004 02:02:47 GMT
<bFvvc.21176$Click here to reveal e-mail address>:
[Original message clipped]
And the difference is precisely...what?
Library model:
- download header files
- download source code (if building the library locally for some reason)
- download relocatable machine code (or in the case of Java, bytecode)
- compile library (if building locally)
- compile local source against header files
- link, either during build, during program load, or during class load
- run
Kernel model:
- essentially the same as the library model except that no linking
is involved; the kernel instead sets up "interrupt trap" vectors
which the application calls
Assembly model (AFAICT):
- download assembly
* contents: header files, intermediate code, symboldefs, references, etc.
- compile local source
- construct local assembly, with proper references (one might construe
this as "link", although there are a number of methods by which one
can do outside references; I'd have to look)
- run
I'm not sure I see that much of a difference although the
assembly model (which I've described here generally enough
for it to apply to Java as well as C#/.NET) might be a
little cleaner from an organizational standpoint. The only
real difference is that the intermediate code language is
now standardized -- but intermediate forms have been around
ever since compilers were developed, check the "dragon book"
(_Complexity of Compiler Design_, Aho, Sethi, Ullman,
called the "dragon book" because of the cover showing
a knight armed with the then-current tools attacking
an appropriately-labeled dragon) for example. That was in 1986.
And there is something else being toted around: namely, the
JVM or runtime environment. Something has to be toted
around; even the most pessimistic "trust scenarios" require
something prebuilt on the client machine, even if it's only
DOS's DEBUG.EXE into which one types the firstlevel compiler,
or firmware that activates a reader that swallows digital media.
(On an old HP 2114B, something had to process the paper
tapes that got stuck into memory when one simultaneously
pressed [LOAD] and [START]. I don't know offhand what
it was though it might have simply been a counter cycling
through the memory addresses. I also built a 1802-based
microprocessor with the capability of reading from cassette
tape -- but only after I toggled in (or keyed in; I later
wired up a 19-key hexpad) a simple bootstrapping machine.)
In this case the OS can be construed as a library; certainly a
large chunk of it is designed to be callable from executables.
I could see the next generation of Windows -- "all .NET,
all the time" -- could eliminate the entire current crop
of viruses, as buffer overruns and stack tricks become
a thing of the past. Of course if badly done one might
sport a crop of entirely new viruses taking advantage of
such things as DNS hijacks, link takeovers, certificate
theft, and Trojaning -- which admittedly is about what most
"viruses" (OE scripts) do now anyway.
"Oooh, nekkid pictures of Anna K...erm...wait..."
Hold onto your hats, flags, coffee cups, lizards, penguins,
swirly things, spacecraft, flying stars, ... :-)
--
#191, Click here to reveal e-mail address
It's still legal to go .sigless.
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| Paul Hovnanian P.E. |
Joe Jitsu wrote:
[Original message clipped]
What do you mean by 'a minimum'? The libraries, compiler and run time
all have to be documented, tested and certified. Right down to the
processor hardware.
[Original message clipped]
Desktops aren't certified as flight worthy. So the code would have to be
built and tested on the target platform anyway. Why bother certifying
all the uneeded crap that comes with the typical desktop?
--
Paul Hovnanian mailto:Click here to reveal e-mail address
note to spammers: a Washington State resident
------------------------------------------------------------------
2 + 2 = 5 for extremely large values of 2.
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| Abraham Lincoln |
Paul Hovnanian P.E. wrote:
[Original message clipped]
Because ultimately the Framework and the OS will be the same.
So the /carrying/ will be nothing.
The OS becomes one huge Object Model
--
w:4
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| Paul Hovnanian P.E. |
Click here to reveal e-mail address wrote:
>
[snip]
[Original message clipped]
So, where did the requirement to run _any_ Windows software on board the
aircraft come from?
I ask this question rhetorically, having worked at Boeing in the past
and seen how far Boeing's nose was shoved up Microsoft's nether regions.
--
Paul Hovnanian mailto:Click here to reveal e-mail address
note to spammers: a Washington State resident
------------------------------------------------------------------
668: The Neighbor of the Beast
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| Jeff Relf |
Hi Hot Tamales !,
For flying by wire ( i.e. via electronics ) ...
You suggested:
" sophisticated platforms like .NET
with automatic garbage collection "
And have the code lock up under random garbage collection
while trying to land a 747 in a rainstorm ? !
That'd be a bonanza for the 11 o'clock news.
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| T.G.Reaper |
On Tue, 01 Jun 2004 18:39:02 -0700, Jeff Relf wrote:
[Original message clipped]
Last I checked garbage collection was a good thing.
[Original message clipped]
Last time I looked in the cockpit of a 747 the pilot was much more
interested in the altimeter, compass, attitude indicator, airspeed,
and the position of all the control surfaces, when landing.
None of those basic systems, to the best of my knowledge, is in any way
dependent on Microsoft Windows for anything. But feel free to call and
ask the avionics companies and ask them.
Can I have some of what you're smoking?
--
[11:33:10] Reaper $ su NormalUser
Password:
[11:33:10] Reaper $ whoami
root
[11:33:10] Reaper $
**************************************************************
no entry in .passwd or .groups file for NormalUser localy.
Now I wonder what happens if I delete that entry for root
from the .passwd file...?
\etc\ #: Cheers - T.G. Reaper
** If anybody knows for sure, give me your opinion ***********
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| Jeff Relf |
Hi T.G.Reaper,
Re: Landing a 747 in a hurricane ( ha ha ).
You mentioned,
" None of those basic systems, to the best of my knowledge,
is in any way dependent on Microsoft Windows for anything. "
Of course not, it's all black boxes.
( Never to be confused with white boxes )
I'm saying that C# and garbage collection
in a cockpit device is an absurd notion.
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| Joe Jitsu |
Jeff Relf wrote:
[Original message clipped]
Foolhardy...but quite sound.
BTW, did you know that the Sung tribe, who speak only in tongue clicks,
don't use /c#/ -- they use /!c/
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| James A. Robertson |
On Tue, 1 Jun 2004 18:39:02 -0700, Jeff Relf <Click here to reveal e-mail address> wrote:
[Original message clipped]
As opposed to locking up because of a wild pointer reference? GC
based systems exist for real-time software.
[Original message clipped]
<Talk Small and Carry a Big Class Library>
James Robertson, Product Manager, Cincom Smalltalk
http://www.cincomsmalltalk.com/blog/blogView
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| Jörn W. Janneck |
Hot Tamales ! wrote:
[Original message clipped]
don't know most programmers, so it's kinda hard to say. point is, however,
that programming is a fairly complex activity, with an absolutely staggering
productivity difference between really good and really bad programmers. iow,
it's an activity where your abilities really can make a difference, and yes,
if they do, i think it's not unreasonable to compensate you for it.
> I think there are a lot of *fakers* amoung us...
unlike which profession again?
>> of course, we would then sit in a fly-by-wire 777 whose control software
was
[Original message clipped]
i had understood your original remark as suggesting that locally the income
of software engineers is too high. maybe that was wrong?
offshoring is a different issue, i think. while, say, indian software
engineers are being paid substantially less than local talent, that seems to
be mainly a matter of relative income levels than qualification.
[Original message clipped]
actually, i don't think that the fact that programming has moved up in terms
of abstraction implies that it is any less difficult. in fact, one could
argue that some of the effort in constructing good software has moved away
from struggling with technical issues and more towards design, architecture,
and more, well, "high-level" concerns.
> So, a .NET fly by wire,
that is a fscking scary thought!
[Original message clipped]
at least in my experience, the big bucks are not paid to people worrying
about null pointers. they are paid to the architects, and i am not aware of
either .net or advanced xml having made any significant contributions to
automatically creating good architectures.
apart from that, next year it will be .somethingelse, and
advancedyetanotherml. unless you want to exchange your entire workforce at
the whim of some marketing department in redmond, you better hire people who
can assimilate this new-fangled stuff as quickly as it comes and goes.
no, i am not convinced that the need for intelligent, highly qualified
people with a solid understanding of the basics will go away anytime soon in
the field of software engineering. perhaps some phbs think so, but those
will be dealt with by the darwinian forces of the market.
-- j
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| Mike Williams |
"Jörn W. Janneck" <jwjanneck at yahoo dot com> wrote in message
news:c9jm6f$Click here to reveal e-mail address...
[Original message clipped]
Agreed. Many people seem to think that all Indian programmers must
necessarily be less intelligent or less able just because they are paid less
money. That isn't the case at all. Many Indian (and other nationality)
programmers are very intelligent and very well educated people and in many
cases they are far more capable than the average American programmer. I
would agree that there is a bit of a language problem due to the fact that
English is not their first language, but judging by the appalling grammar
and spelling in many newsgroup messages written by native English and
American programmers I can't see that being too much of a problem for them!
Mike
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| Roedy Green |
On Wed, 2 Jun 2004 08:21:15 +0100, "Mike Williams"
<Click here to reveal e-mail address> wrote or quoted :
[Original message clipped]
In India nearly everyone speaks English, just like Sweden. It is just
they speak it with a different accent. It is not as though it is a
language picked up late in life.
I remember once asking a guy from the Caribbean what language he spoke
besides English. He was quite offended. That was his only language.
It just sound strange to our ears.
--
Canadian Mind Products, Roedy Green.
Coaching, problem solving, economical contract programming.
See http://mindprod.com/jgloss/jgloss.html for The Java Glossary.
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| Jeff Relf |
Hi Mike Williams,
Re: Cheap programmers from India, Asia, etc. .
You astutely noted,
" I would agree that there is a bit of a language problem
due to the fact that English is not their first language,
but judging by the appalling grammar
and spelling in many newsgroup messages
written by native English and American programmers
I can't see that being too much of a problem for them ! "
Touche !
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| Joe Jitsu |
Jeff Relf wrote:
[Original message clipped]
English, as far as I know, is a universally learned language in India.
Spoken, and written, beautifully by it's people.
Have you read "The Life of Pi" ?
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| Mike Williams |
"Joe Jitsu" <Click here to reveal e-mail addressga> wrote in message
news:4ppvc.20763$Click here to reveal e-mail address...
[Original message clipped]
I would agree that English is spoken by a large number of Indian people,
many of whom I would imagine speak it very well indeed, but it is definitely
not "universally learned", as you have suggested. In fact the official
status of the English language in India is "assistant language". I believe
that Hindi is the most commonly spoken language in India. I don't mention
those facts because I am in some way biased against the Indian people,
because I am not (except for the fact that I most certainly do not like the
way that most influential Indian people subscribe to the "caste" system,
which is itself "bias in the extreme" and which is a thoroughly nasty and
disgusting thing). The sooner the native Indian people come to respect each
other the sooner they will command the respect of other people in this
world, myself included.
Mike
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| Roedy Green |
On Wed, 2 Jun 2004 20:32:54 +0100, "Mike Williams"
<Click here to reveal e-mail address> wrote or quoted :
[Original message clipped]
I stayed in Bombay in 1985 for a month. Nearly everyone spoke
English, though at first it was often hard to tell. People would talk
loudly to me, thinking my problem with comprehension was deafness.
There are an astounding number of languages and alphabets in India.
English is what ties everyone together.
Even back then it was obvious to me that India would be come an major
software power. People were SO eager to learn about computers. Word
got out that I knew about them and people approached me everywhere.
Further, the computer shopkeepers were much more informed than those
back home.
--
Canadian Mind Products, Roedy Green.
Coaching, problem solving, economical contract programming.
See http://mindprod.com/jgloss/jgloss.html for The Java Glossary.
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| Joe Jitsu |
Roedy Green wrote:
[Original message clipped]
What about India'a capacity to 'absorb' software as well as produce it?
It would seem with it's large population, the need to innovate and
enhance it's society, the great manufacturing base and so on... that
long term, it will be a major software *market* -- not just an
offshoring site.
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| Mike Williams |
"Roedy Green" <Click here to reveal e-mail address> wrote in message
news:Click here to reveal e-mail address...
[Original message clipped]
Yes. You're probably right. Such a pity that such a small percentage of them
are given the facilities to learn about them.
Mike
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| Jörn W. Janneck |
Mike Williams wrote:
[Original message clipped]
then again, it is a country with limited financial resources, and in spite
of this it churns out a huge number of incredibly well-qualified
graduates---many of which go on to contribute to other societies, especially
the u.s., where indians are a significant and important part of the academic
community.
personally, i applaud the dedication of this large and poor country to
improving its condition through educating its people.
-- j
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| Mike Williams |
"Jörn W. Janneck" <jwjanneck at yahoo dot com> wrote in message
news:c9lf1u$Click here to reveal e-mail address...
[Original message clipped]
So would I, if it made an effort to educate *all* of its people. Sadly,
hundreds of millions of its citizens are denied a proper education (and a
lot more besides) simply because they were unfortunate enough to be born to
parents of the "lower castes". Very sad. Very sad indeed. I can understand
that cash for educational purposes is limited and that sometimes tough
decisions have to be made, but such decisions should not be taken purely on
the grounds that a child happened to be born in the "wrong" place to the
"wrong" parents!
Mike
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| Jörn W. Janneck |
Mike Williams wrote:
[Original message clipped]
no argument there.
as far as i know (and admittedly i am no expert on this, i essentially
parrot what i hear from colleagues and friends), there is in fact some form
of affirmative action going on which reserves quotas for "lower" castes. and
it seems to be troubled with all the usual problems, such as that caste
(like race) is not a perfect predictor for economic power and degree of
being "disadvantaged," the people who benefit from affirmative action are
injected into an environment in which they are representatives of an
identifiable minority, and which might see their presence as something that
was given to them, rather than as something they earned etc. so yeah, it's
not all great, but what else is there to do?
and, of course, it is still the case that *economic* factors (which often,
but by far not always, mirror or stem from the caste structure) result in
very unequal access to higher education. but this is really no different in
the u.s. (which is where i happen to sit), and if the richest country in the
world cannot provide high-quality education to all its citizens, how can we
possibly expect a country like india to be able to?
-- j
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| Raghar |
"Jörn W. Janneck" <jwjanneck at yahoo dot com> wrote in
news:c9lf1u$Click here to reveal e-mail address:
[Original message clipped]
Education of few highly, or educating a lot poorly. How much would cost
them a free education for everyone?
Sadly current school system is more based on atempts to get money from
students. Not everyone should be forced into losing 4 years on university,
(and possibly forced into another 4 years on lower school) and get himself
into debts, just to get a higher sallary. It's just waste of time and
money. It's often just a "paper education". This means education, just to
get a paper, nothing more.
--
Kizutsuite 'ta ano hi kara
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| Martin Trump |
In message <Xns9500CC81DE256Raghar@195.250.128.45>, Raghar
<Click here to reveal e-mail address> writes
>Education of few highly, or educating a lot poorly.
Would you be kind enough to trim the newsgroups you're posting to?
This irrelevant to comp.lang.visual.misc
TIA
--
Martin Trump
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| Jeff Relf |
Hi Joe Jitsu,
You wrongly suggested,
" English, as far as I know,
is a universally learned language in India.
Spoken, and written, beautifully by it's people. "
No John, most people there don't speak English.
And even if they do, it's not their first language.
And it's usually very hard to understand.
Not that there aren't exceptions to that general rule.
You asked me, ' Have you read " The Life of Pi " ? '
No. I almost never read books.
As you know, I much prefer Usenet and the web.
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| Joe Jitsu |
Jeff Relf wrote:
[Original message clipped]
<quote>
Officially English has a status of assistant language, but in fact it is
the most important language of India. After Hindi it is the most
commonly spoken language in India and probably the most read and written
language in India. Indians who know English will always try to show that
they know English.
</quote>
http://adaniel.tripod.com/Languages3.htm
Unlike our colony, India had the good sense to remain part of Her
Majesty's Empire well into the 20th Century. If not for that awful bald
fellow and his dohti, we would all be eating crumpets and tea on the
veranda! ( Col. Reginald A. Spiffs, Rtd. )
[Original message clipped]
And they feel sorry for kids who watch too much t.v. -- mmm
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| Jeff Relf |
Hi Joe Jitsu,
Are you claiming
that most people in India speak English well ?
I live with people from India,
I talk to them about this very topic.
English speakers in India, especially good speakers,
are few and far between.
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| Mike Williams |
"Joe Jitsu" <Click here to reveal e-mail addressga> wrote in message
news:gGpvc.20776$Click here to reveal e-mail address...
[Original message clipped]
ROTFLMAO!
Well at least a few would be having tea and crumpets on the veranda. The
vast majority, however, would still be crushed under foot by the awful,
terrible caste system. What a waste of potential. There are undoubtedly some
powerful intellects amongst the "lower castes" (I would suspect about the
same proportion as there are in the highest caste). What a waste! And so
cruel!
Mike
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| BeastFish |
[Original message clipped]
The level of intelligence isn't as much a factor as some would assume
regarding the outsourcees (?). One factor is that many of the overseas
outsourcees are little more than code factories, where quantity takes
precedence over quality. Also, most working for such a facility are
probably young recent grads since they cost less. Thus they may be the
brightest, smartest, most book-knowledgeable there is, but may be lacking in
the type of knowledge and wisdom one acquires through experience. They may
code like whizzes, but may not yet know the "why's". And when volume is the
priority, even the best programmers will produce bugs.
I read an article in one of the major business publications a while ago
analyzing the development of the tech sector in India. India is in the
early stages of building a substantial venture capital base. Taking into
consideration India's growing venture capital base and plenty of HB visa
holders returning home with entrepreneurial ambitions, India is expected to
become the technology leader of the world in around 10 years. IOW, India
will be the home of the majority of software companies and where most future
innovations will be coming from. Heck, even Microsoft is investing
financially in India and also employs a lot of HB workers from India in
Redmond.
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| Peter Ammon |
BeastFish wrote:
[Original message clipped]
I don't know if the above is true or not. One problem I have heard is
that many parts of India are undergoing rapid salary inflation. This
gives tech workers an incentive to leave for higher paying jobs, and new
workers are continually brought in to fill the gaps. This means that
few people stay around to get much experience with any particular
project. Again, just something I read.
[Original message clipped]
I don't resent anyone taking my bread and butter because they're smarter
or hungrier (in the ambition sense) than me. My fear is that my smarts
and hunger will be trumped by the apparent short term benefits of moving
my job where someone else can afford to work more cheaply.
[Original message clipped]
Even so, they might still be able to innovate :)
--
Pull out a splinter to reply.
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| Joe Jitsu |
BeastFish wrote:
[Original message clipped]
You know whenever people try to *soften* a major trend like outsourcing,
they end up eating their hat. At first they criticize the quality, then
the language barriers and so on...
If you looked at what people said about Japanese products and workers in
the 1960's and 70's -- just prior to the wave of automobile imports in
the 1980's -- you will see the same thing.
Japan proved that language is not a barrier to selling to other people
-- hell, we've been doing that for 100 years! And now, India, a
country which actually has more of claim to *English* -- having been a
former member of the Empire -- is poised to do the same in 'high
technology' -- and why not. If they would let me, I would move there
in a flash, get a hut, and join a c# sharp sweatshop and work 16 hours a
day and live, breathe and love c# and I would be happy. Eventually, I
would save enough rupees to buy a few wives and put another couple of
mud brick walls on my hacienda.
THAT'S LIVING !
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| Jeff Relf |
Hi Joe Jitsu,
Re: Outsourcing coding to India.
You wrote,
" If they would let me,
I would move there in a flash, get a hut,
and join a c# sharp sweatshop and work 16 hours a day
and live, breathe and love c# and I would be happy.
Eventually, I would save enough rupees to buy a few wives
and put another couple of mud brick walls on my hacienda.
THAT'S LIVING ! "
Love C# ? C++ is better.
Buy a few wives ? Anything is better.
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| Joe Jitsu |
Jeff Relf wrote:
[Original message clipped]
Jeff, now you've learned that c#/mono are your future meal ticket.
Learn, Jeff, Learn mono...and maybe those jute bags will be yours !
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| Jeff Relf |
Hi Joe Jitsu ( John ),
You wrote,
" Jeff, I've finally learned that c++ is just plain fun.
The money is now very secondary to me.
I don't know why I ever thought C++ was so difficult.
C++ can create open-source / cross-platform applets
better than any fly-by-night language such as C#.
I must learn, Jeff, Learn C++ ...
and then maybe ... just maybe ...
I won't be so horny anymore. "
Wow, John. I couldn't have said it better myself.
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| Jamal Marley |
Jeff Relf wrote:
[Original message clipped]
Jeff,
Hell hath no fury like a programmer scorned.
Bill is a man of many languages and software platform.
In the steam room the boys like to say, that he 'loves them,
and leaves them...'
That's why following a loser around is not the answer.
Go Linux. Go mono. Go c#. Get a steady OS, a steady
Object Layer and good solid language.
--
w:4
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| Jeff Relf |
Hi Jamal Marley ( John ),
Re: When you were Bill's special project.
You noted,
" In the steam room the boys liked to say that he
' loves them, and leaves them ' ".
That's right John,
That's why you should avoid Bill's latest language du jour.
It will be old news pretty soon ... just stale leftovers.
Stick with something that's going to really last ...
like C and the better parts of C++.
I love the way C++ lets me declare variables anywhere,
and not just before the first statement.
I also love the way C++ can bind a variable to a reference
using & and =, e.g.: int Any, & Reference = Any ;
So Reference and Any are exactly the same thing.
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| asj |
Jamal Marley <Click here to reveal e-mail addresse> wrote in message news:<Click here to reveal e-mail address>...
[Original message clipped]
#1: C-sharp is a Microsoft invention and product, and using it
automatically means you are helping Microsoft.
#2: Mono is a trojan horse that will kill or wound Linux in future.
Why? Because Microsoft has patents on parts of it, something de Icaza
pooh poohs but is worrying lots of people.
Believe me, Bill Gates and Ballmer are laughing at all the fools who
want mono to contaminate Linux, because they know they can pull the
plug on it anytime in future when and if it suits them (and this time,
there is no IBM angel to help out like the SCO problem - IBM is firmly
a Java vendor)
Listen to what a gnome contributor wrote:
http://www.gnome.org/~seth/blog/mono
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| Tom Shelton |
On 3 Jun 2004 18:58:10 -0700, asj wrote:
[Original message clipped]
Seems I read something similar about Java not to long ago from some Linux
zelot. To bad I didn't save the link.
By the way, bailo makes one good point... What about DotGNU? A
implementation being developed by the FSF? Is that a trojan horse as well?
--
Tom Shelton
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| The Ghost In The Machine |
In comp.lang.java.advocacy, asj
<Click here to reveal e-mail address>
wrote
on 3 Jun 2004 18:58:10 -0700
<Click here to reveal e-mail address>:
[Original message clipped]
C# may indeed be a Microsoft innovation (or maybe not), but
screwdrivers help a lot of people. Should we stop using them
because they were invented by someone?
[Original message clipped]
That is a legitimate concern. Of course, patents are not
specific to C#. I had to withdraw a Perl counter because
GIF was patented, for example.
[Original message clipped]
Then C# might simply fork. One part will become C#-MS, which will
serve the commercial subsector (or anyone Microsoft wants it to).
The other part may become C#-FreeOS or something, or perhaps
Gnu.NET. It will complicate things, of course, but Java has, in
a sense, already forked (Java vs. Kaffe vs. Jikes), though it's
not clear many pay much attention to said forking.
And C# might have already forked, as well, though I've not looked
at Gnu.NET.
[Original message clipped]
Patents are the issue here, not C# per se. But it's clear that
this is a barbed offer -- and I for one would prefer Python or
PHP or a variant of C++ (I have a refcount template set I
developed that works reasonably well, for example) to C# or Java,
though with Java at least one can try to improve Kaffe, and
gcj has its plusses.
--
#191, Click here to reveal e-mail address
It's still legal to go .sigless.
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| Dr Chaos |
On 3 Jun 2004 18:58:10 -0700, asj <Click here to reveal e-mail address> wrote:
[Original message clipped]
See today's Wall Street Journal.
Microsoft is going to start getting medieval with their patents.
In the past Microsoft accumulated patents for "defensive" reasons
and assured people that they'd never sue. So far they haven't.
What do you know. Microsoft changed its mind.
Just like it can change its mind about Mono and sue the bejezzus out
of people.
[Original message clipped]
They want Linux-using companies to be scared that some future GNOME has
been "contaminated" by Microsoft patents---and the pinheaded
lawyers for the company will be so scared that they will ban Linux
entirely, and not be convinced with a Mono-less GNOME.
(MSFT will search for other patent violations too).
SCO suing was rightly regarded as a joke and hasn't hurt Linux much.
But they're incompetent idiots.
Microsoft is not incompetent at suing.
[Original message clipped]
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| Joe Jitsu |
asj wrote:
[Original message clipped]
Why would Ximian, Suse or Novell ( the owners of mono ) /help/ Microsoft ?
And how do you explain:
http://www.gnu.org/projects/dotgnu/
Dotgnu -- another c# compiler that is featured on the GNU/FSF homepage?
According to the Dotgnu site:
http://www.southern-storm.com.au/pnet_faq.html#q11_1
11.1. What is Mono?
The Mono project that is run by Ximian has many of the same goals as
DotGNU Portable.NET. See their Web site for further details:
http://www.go-mono.com/
[Original message clipped]
A trojan horse implies that there is a glossy outer coating, with
something sinister and evil hidden inside. What no one in COLA has yet
to tell me in definitive terms is: what exactly is the catch ?
[Original message clipped]
And Sun bought an SCO license, and it's still trying to discredit Linux
to favor it's Solaris product by (a) creating a crappy desktop and
glutting it in the WalMart channel (b) selling it's Solaris as a
'business operating system' at Office Depot.
[Original message clipped]
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| Rob S. Pierre |
"Joe Jitsu" <Click here to reveal e-mail addressga> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:ZHTvc.1068$Click here to reveal e-mail address...
[Original message clipped]
Novell does not own Mono, you fool! Mono is an OSS-project.
And Novell is a _JAVA_ company and not a Mono-company.
Novell will use Eclipse as integration-tool and Novell is heavily involved
in J2EE-enterprise-development.
Is Novell's website written in ASP.NET? No way. It is 100% Java.
"Miguel" is a good liar. But who cares. It is not him deciding about
Novell's future direction. Eclipse and J2EE are much more important
for Novell then Mono ever will be.
Continue dreaming, John Bailo!
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| Gnu Deal |
Rob S. Pierre wrote:
> Novell does not own Mono, you fool! Mono is an OSS-project.
Novell bought Ximian, and mono is a Ximian sponsored project
Miguel de Icaza refers to himself as a 'Novell executive' and has 16
programmers employed by Novell working on mono.
[Original message clipped]
You are about 3 years behind the times.
mono is bundled in the Suse 9.1 distro.
Have you looked at the Novell website recently?
http://www.novell.com/linux/
> Is Novell's website written in ASP.NET? No way. It is 100% Java.
Really? No HTML ?
[Original message clipped]
I live in the real world.
You live here:
http://www.angelfire.com/pop/1955/sanitarium.html
> Continue dreaming, John Bailo!
I'm only sleeping.
--
w:4
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| The Ghost In The Machine |
In comp.lang.java.advocacy, Jeff Relf
<Click here to reveal e-mail address>
wrote
on Thu, 3 Jun 2004 06:17:36 -0700
<Click here to reveal e-mail address>:
[Original message clipped]
C# "fly-by-night"? C# is backed by the most profitable
company in the United States. Java, by contrast, is
only backed by Sun, which is still hemmorhaeging cash.
Then again, Java has a huge head start, and IBM is out
there. Somewhere. Also, the adoption rate of C# has
been unfavorably compared to the speed of a turtle with
a dead albatross around its neck slogging through cold
molasses during a January snowstorm. However, the hare
shouldn't stop -- the tortoise is moving forward. Also,
Java might find itself competing with a standardized C++
library with "on-demand" software build (the main problem
right now, though, is that the setup for the build --
using a combination of libtools, autoheader, autoconf,
and automake -- takes a bit of time). Also, PHP, while
an interpretive non-scalable language, is fairly popular
for website development. (Python might be compilable; I'd
have to look. Tcl has now been more or less deprecated --
a pity, for it was simple, if stupid, but PHP fills its
niche and then some.)
C++ cannot do open-source/cross-platform applets
without an onboard compiler; neither can C# unless
the machines happen to match. Since .NET has one,
this isn't a big issue.
Java's JRE also includes an onboard compiler (for the JIT).
As it is, Java doesn't have a free 3DGl API yet. (There
is a payware one, so there's hope.) That's probably
"the next frontier", although things get a little muddy
because of nVidia vs. ATI concerns and the DirectX issue.
--
#191, Click here to reveal e-mail address
It's still legal to go .sigless.
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| Tom Shelton |
In article <Click here to reveal e-mail address>, The Ghost In The Machine wrote:
[Original message clipped]
<snip>
[Original message clipped]
Hmmm, there is a free OpenGL library for .NET - in fact, it was recently
added to the Mono distribution as well :) (It's call TAO, I believe).
--
Tom Shelton [MVP]
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| Jeff Relf |
Hi The Ghost In The Machine,
You mentioned,
" C++ cannot do open-source/cross-platform applets
without an onboard compiler ".
Is that some big hurdle ?
People just download the appropriate binaries, so what ?
Just make the source code available too.
( But I doubt that most would want to see that )
C# won't magically produce cross-platform code !
How do you know if your program will run ...
and run well ...
on a dual CPU Mac G5 with a 40 inch LCD or a cell phone
if you haven't tested it ?
All this is not some vision problem,
it just takes blood sweat and tears.
Now playing on 103.7 FM in Seattle,
_ Orange Sky _ , written and sung by Alexi Murdoch.
Well, I had a dream
I stood beneath an orange sky.
Yes, I had a dream
I stood beneath an orange sky.
With my brother standing by.
With my brother standing by.
I said,
" Brother, You know ...
you know ...
it's a long road we've been walking on. "
...
" Brother, you know it's ...
you know it's ...
Such a long road we've been walking on. "
And, I had a dream
I stood beneath an orange sky.
With my sister standing by.
With my sister standing by.
I said,
" Sister, Here is what I know now ...
Here is what I know now ...
Goes like this ...
In your love ... My salvation lies ...
In your love ... My salvation lies ...
In your love ... My salvation lies ...
In your love,
in your love,
in your love. "
...
" But sister you know I'm so weary.
And you know sister ...
My hearts been broken.
Sometimes, sometimes ...
My mind is too strong to carry on ...
Too strong to carry on. "
...
" When I am alone.
When I've thrown off the weight of this crazy stone.
" When I've lost all care for the things I own.
That's when I miss you.
That's when I miss you.
That's when I miss you.
You who are my home.
You who are my home. "
And, here is what I know now.
Here is what I know now.
Goes like this ...
In your love ... My salvation lies ...
In your love ... My salvation lies ...
In your love ... My salvation lies ...
In your love ... My salvation lies ...
In your love ... My salvation lies ...
In your love ... My salvation lies ...
In your love ... My salvation lies ...
In your love,
in your love,
in your love. "
Well, I had a dream,
I stood beneath an orange sky.
Yes, I had a dream,
I stood beneath an orange sky.
With my brother and my sister standing by.
With my brother and my sister standing by.
With my brother and my sister standing by.
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| White City |
On Thu, 03 Jun 2004 14:44:36 -0700, Jeff Relf wrote:
[Original message clipped]
Isn't it time we all woke up and acknowledge: Applets Are Craplets.
With the advent of McRMI ( web services ) anybody can create a client
application that can remotely access methods, or a specialized server,
toot sweet using mono and c#.
Browsers are archaic.
RMI is old.
Welcome to the new world of disconnected, Wide Area, stateless client
apps, writen in mono, that access distributed web service methods.
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| Jeff Relf |
Hi White City,
You proclaimed,
" Welcome to the new world of
disconnected, Wide Area, stateless client apps,
written in C++,
that access distributed web service methods. "
Sounds good to me.
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| The Ghost In The Machine |
In comp.lang.java.advocacy, Jeff Relf
<Click here to reveal e-mail address>
wrote
on Thu, 3 Jun 2004 14:44:36 -0700
<1a0lktorcnjuw$.Click here to reveal e-mail address>:
[Original message clipped]
Correct. Or, with gcc, one builds one compiler, with another,
then builds a third compiler from the second. (The details
are available in the docs accompaying the gcc source code.)
[Original message clipped]
Nothing does. But all .NET code is cross-platform.
AFAIK, it was designed that way, though the first implementation
is Microsoft-specific. Mono, however, is not
Microsoft-specific, and will build on most platforms.
(For its part Java bytecode is also cross-platform.)
[Original message clipped]
If the .NET environment exists on said Mac, C# code will
run on said Mac. The main issue is libraries (WinForms).
[Original message clipped]
[.songsnip]
--
#191, Click here to reveal e-mail address
It's still legal to go .sigless.
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| Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz |
begin In <Click here to reveal e-mail address>, on 06/05/2004
at 12:00 AM, The Ghost In The Machine
<Click here to reveal e-mail address> said:
>Nothing does. But all .NET code is cross-platform.
No.
--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz, SysProg and JOAT
Unsolicited bulk E-mail will be subject to legal action. I reserve
the right to publicly post or ridicule any abusive E-mail.
Reply to domain Patriot dot net user shmuel+news to contact me. Do
not reply to Click here to reveal e-mail address
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| The Ghost In The Machine |
In comp.os.linux.advocacy, Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
<Click here to reveal e-mail address>
wrote
on Tue, 08 Jun 2004 16:57:25 -0300
<40c62835$10$fuzhry+tra$Click here to reveal e-mail address>:
[Original message clipped]
You'll have to clarify that response. Of course, perhaps I should
clarify mine, because as it turns out I'm wrong anyway (WinForms).
What I meant is that, once properly written code is compiled
using any .NET-supported compiler (C# among them), the resulting assembly
can be run anywhere if the libraries are available (which of
course precludes WinForms, but might include Gtk#, which
is portable to Win32, as well as to Linux and a few other places).
At least, that's my understanding, regarding Mono.
Mea culpa.
(Grrr. I hate it when I do that. :-) )
--
#191, Click here to reveal e-mail address
It's still legal to go .sigless.
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| Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz |
begin In <Click here to reveal e-mail address>, on 06/09/2004
at 04:00 AM, The Ghost In The Machine
<Click here to reveal e-mail address> said:
>You'll have to clarify that response.
Just what it says: .net code is not cross-platform. It is basically
redmondware, is oriented to redmond operating system and won't run on
all of the platforms that, e.g., Java will.
[Original message clipped]
That's still not true. FTP whatever libraries you want to, e.g., z/OS,
and you still won't be able to run your .net code.
--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz, SysProg and JOAT
Unsolicited bulk E-mail will be subject to legal action. I reserve
the right to publicly post or ridicule any abusive E-mail.
Reply to domain Patriot dot net user shmuel+news to contact me. Do
not reply to Click here to reveal e-mail address
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| Tom Shelton |
On Sun, 13 Jun 2004 13:13:39 -0300, Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz wrote:
[Original message clipped]
You're going to have to clarify that... Are you talking about .NET or the
ECMA/ISO C#/CLI? Currently, Rotor - the ECMA/ISO reference version of the
C# compiler and CLI runs on Windows, FreeBSD, and MacOS X. Mono runs on
all of these and a lot more...
Code written and compiled in VS.NET can generally be run on Linux and the
Mono runtime with out change (with the caveat that the library classes are
currently implemented - which is becomming less of an issue as time
passes.). I would say that it is definately cross platform. As cross
platform as Java? Not yet. But Java, like .NET, is only as cross platform
as the number of systems the java runtime has been ported to. The Java
runtime has been around a lot more years - it has had time to be ported to
many OS's/architectures. But for me, right now, C# is as cross platform as
I need it to be - it runs on windows and linux x86.
[Original message clipped]
If there was no runtime for z/OS, then that would apply to your java code
as well. Java wasn't always as cross platform as it is today....
--
Tom Shelton
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| Jeff Relf |
Hi Tom Shelton and Shmuel Metz,
Don't forget that Java is about quick and dirty ( Filthy ? )
applets ... not full-blown applications.
Tom knows that I'm writing an app, RRR_Puppy,
which is targeting my Win98 box,
as well as Numerous PC's on campus, including WinXP.
Out of the many hundreds of PC's that I have access to,
MacOS X doesn't even show up on my radar.
Linux is worse than that, it's no where to be found.
( Because I don't have root access anywhere )
But ... If I were to target MacOS X or Linux,
I'd _ Still _ use C++ ... C# is a sick joke.
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| The Ghost In The Machine |
In comp.lang.java.advocacy, Jeff Relf
<Click here to reveal e-mail address>
wrote
on 14 Jun 2004 15:55:30 GMT
<Click here to reveal e-mail address>:
[Original message clipped]
Well, now you've got me curious. Precisely why is C# a sick joke?
As for Java: it's running on a lot of servers. JBoss is
very popular, and there are commercial J2EE variants
running amuck (BEA WebLogic, IBM's WebSphere come to mind).
Most of Java's applications relate to serving Web browsers,
as far as I can tell.
I can't say Sun's laughing all the way to the bank (they
aren't that healthy looking yet) but at least they're smiling.
--
#191, Click here to reveal e-mail address
It's still legal to go .sigless.
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| Jeff Relf |
Hi The Ghost In The Machine,
You asked me, " Precisely why is C# a sick joke ? "
Because it's not serious. And how could it be ?
If you want to target a device ... then target it.
You can't build a skyscraper with an all purpose tool.
And that's what C# and Java are, all purpose tools.
They do a bit of everything ... but nothing well.
e.g. No memmove() or realloc(), poor virtualizations,
and OS specific tasks defeat their one advantage.
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| Judge Bailo Presiding |
Jeff Relf wrote:
[Original message clipped]
What?
Skyscrapers are products of the machine age.
Templated girders. Fastners for walls instead of nails. Modular
plumbing, electricity, heating and cooling.
Modern housing is also modular...assembled quickly, easily with high
quality and low cost, with the latest tools and materials.
Jeff -- You're still building Thatch Huts..
[Original message clipped]
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| Jeff Relf |
Hi Judge Judy,
You commented,
" Jeff -- You're still building Thatch Huts. "
Hmm ... Perhaps so, But I love my little hut.
P.S.
My bitch stole my favorite porno DVD,
she can get 90 to life for that, right ?
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| Abraham Lincoln |
Jeff Relf wrote:
[Original message clipped]
Perhaps you can create low cost coding methods for the poor.
President Carter will award you appropriately....
--
w:4
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| Tom Shelton |
In article <Click here to reveal e-mail address>, Jeff Relf wrote:
[Original message clipped]
First, off Jeff - I don't care if you continue to use C/C++. That's
you're choice - and it is a fine one.
But, the fact is that Java (though, I'm not much of a Java fan) and C#
make many tasks simpler and you're code more secure and less error
prone. All of that translates to shorter time to market - and that in
many markets, that is what counts.
I'm not claiming that C# (or Java) is the end-all, be-all of programming,
nor is it suitable for every task - but it is certainly more capable
then you like to make it sound.
[Original message clipped]
I assure you it's serious.
[Original message clipped]
That makes sense for certain domains - device drivers, embedded, etc.
But, it certainly isn't a blanket proposition.
[Original message clipped]
There isn't much I can't do in C# that you can do in C++... And in
those rare instances when I can't use C# (like global system hooks in
windows), it is fairly trivial to write the code in a dll in C/C++ and
call it from my C# application.
[Original message clipped]
Marshal.Copy
Marshal.AllocHClobal
Marshal.AllochGlobal
Happy now...
--
Tom Shelton
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| The Ghost In The Machine |
In comp.lang.java.advocacy, Jeff Relf
<Click here to reveal e-mail address>
wrote
on 14 Jun 2004 23:12:13 GMT
<Click here to reveal e-mail address>:
[Original message clipped]
Well, this gets mildly interesting. Of course it depends on
what one means by a device.
C++ doesn't do IO ports; one has to either call down to an assembly
language routine or use some sort of extension that does assembly.
While this works, it's hardly portable. I for one mostly use X;
X doesn't do devices (at least at the client level), although it
will happily feed one's program events generated therefrom (e.g.,
mouse clicks, keypresses).
C++ can easily handle memory -- even volatile memory.
char * p = (char *) 0x88888888;
for example. Of course the address is highly machine-dependent.
Interrupts are interesting but beyond the scope of most applications.
If one's working in the kernel, one might have a requirement
for handling interrupts. (Linux is, however, written in C.
I don't know about external modules, though.)
As for memmove(): System.arraycopy() is roughly equipvalent.
Realloc() is admittedly an issue, but in a multithreaded environment
where threads are allowed to allocate and free memory, realloc
is slightly problematical anyway as one's virtual address space
gets fragmented.
I'd need some clarifications on poor virtualizations and
OS-specific tasks. Of course part of the OS-specificity is
because of the poor design of many Java programs, which use
"/blah/blah" instead of the more proper
File.listRoots()[n] + "blah" + File.separator + "blah"
(where n is an integer), or an input parameter.
Is this Java's fault? Possibly. But it's not entirely Java's fault.
As for poor virtualization: what is an example of good virtualization?
Color me curious.
--
#191, Click here to reveal e-mail address
It's still legal to go .sigless.
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| General Protection Fault |
["Followup-To:" header set to comp.lang.java.advocacy.]
On 14 Jun 2004 15:55:30 GMT, Jeff Relf wrote:
[Original message clipped]
?
Applets are dead. Java is reborn in the application server.
The simple fact that Java is being used where it was never intended is a sign
that Java is a complete technology.
--
FreeBSD 4.8-RELEASE i386
3:20PM up 85 days, 7:23, 1 user, load averages: 0.00, 0.00, 0.00
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| Dag Sunde |
"Jeff Relf" <Click here to reveal e-mail address> wrote in message
news:Click here to reveal e-mail address...
[Original message clipped]
....and the last time you used Java was... '95?
Luckily, the rest of the market, and half of my customers
don't have that insight you just shared with us...
:-D
I use (and my customers prefer) Java for Enerprice Apps,
Stand alone Apps, and for custom Web apps (Applets).
<snipped/>
--
Dag
58°26'15.9" N 008°46'45.5" E
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| Jeff Relf |
Hi Dag Sunde,
You mentioned that you and your customers prefer,
" Java for Enterprise Apps, Stand alone Apps,
and for custom Web apps ( Applets ). "
You probably work in a very large company ...
Big Corps suck, I say.
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| Judge Bailo Presiding |
Jeff Relf wrote:
[Original message clipped]
Hi There!
I'm on my way, I'm making it
huh
I've got to make it show, yeah!
Aaa!
So much larger than life
I'm gonna watch it growing
Hey, hey, hey, hey.......
The place where I come from
is a small town
They think so small
they use small words
but not me, I'm smarter than that
I worked it out
I'll be stretching my mouth
to let those big words come right out.
I've had enough
I'm getting out
to the city, the big big city
I'll be a big noise
with all the big boys
so much stuff I will own
And I will pray to a big God
as I kneel in the big church
BIG TIME!
I'm on my way I'm making it.
BIG TIME!
Oooo yes.
BIG TIME!
I've got to make it show, yeah.
BIG TIME! (x2)
So much larger than life
BIG TIME!
I'm gonna watch it growing
BIG TIME!
oh..........
My parties have all the big names
and I greet them with the whitest smile
tell them how my life is one big adventure
and always thier amazed
When I show them 'round the house to my bed
I had it made like a mountain range
with a snow white pillow for my big fat head
And my heaven will be a big heaven
and I will walk through the front door
BIG TIME!
I'm on my way I'm making it.
BIG TIME!
huh
BIG TIME!
I've got to make it show, yeah.
BIG TIME! (x2)
So much larger than life
BIG TIME!
I'm gonna watch it growing
BIG TIME! (x2)
My car's getting bigger
BIG TIME!
My house getting bigger
BIG TIME!
My eye's getting bigger
BIG TIME!
and my mouth......
BIG TIME!
My belly's bigger
BIG TIME!
and my bank account
BIG TIME!
Look at my circumstance
BIG TIME!
and the bulge in my big (x15)
-- P. Gabriel
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| Jim Sculley |
Tom Shelton wrote:
[Original message clipped]
Which can't be used for commercial purposes.....
Jim S.
--
Remove my extraneous mandibular appendages to reply via email.
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| Tom Shelton |
In article <Click here to reveal e-mail address>, Jim Sculley wrote:
[Original message clipped]
You're correct Rotor can not be - but Mono can and it runs on all those
and more.
--
Tom Shelton
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| Rob S. Pierre |
"Tom Shelton" <Click here to reveal e-mail address> wrote:
[Original message clipped]
Console.writeLine ("Hello Tom");
In fact you are right.
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| Tom Shelton |
On Tue, 15 Jun 2004 05:11:57 +0200, Rob S. Pierre wrote:
[Original message clipped]
You can be sarcastic all you like - but you failed to quote this part of my
statement:
"(with the caveat that the library classes are currently implemented -
which is becomming less of an issue as time
passes.)"
I acknowledge that Mono is still a beta product - and not every .NET class
has been implemented yet. But, a fairly significant number have been. You
can write programs much more useful then "Hello world" that run on both
..NET and mono. And that includes GUI applications using GTK#.
--
Tom Shelton
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| Rob S. Pierre |
"Tom Shelton" <Click here to reveal e-mail address> wrote:
[Original message clipped]
I am not sarcastic at all. That's the truth. Mono is a kind of lowest-
common-denominator-software - even much more "LCD" then Java
ever was.
Can you write graphics-software with Mono in a platform-independent
way? Let's take a look.
Microsoft uses DirectX, most MS-developers will use it and that means
that games or other 3D-apps don't run on Linux. Off course you can write
OpenGL but that's probably only a very small part of 3D-development.
MSFT will even integrate DirectX into the NET-Framework.
Can you write 2D-graphics in a platform-indendent way? Off course not
because System.Drawing is deeply integrated in GDI. There is some
cloning effort afaik but again 2D-software will not be compatible.
Most MSFT-developers will write Winforms-applications.
WinForms needs Wine to run on Linux and therefore is not a first-class-
citizen on Linux so-to-say. If Mono is dependent from Wine it makes
Mono look bad in the eyes of the community.
The most interesting thing is that apparently the leaders of the Mono-
project want to make Mono the platform for GNOME saying that
compatibility with the Microsoft-implementation is not necessary.
That's confusing for all those MSFT-developers hoping to get their
apps ported to Linux.
I guess on JavaOne Sun will announce that Java will be OSS at
the end of the year. It is inevitable imho that this happens.
If Java 1.5 will have a GNU-compatible licence then Mono will
be literally death.
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| Tom Shelton |
On Wed, 16 Jun 2004 05:17:27 +0200, Rob S. Pierre wrote:
[Original message clipped]
Not really. See, cross platform is nice. It can be done with .NET - but
it isn't really the primary focus of the platform. Nor is it the primary
focus of Mono. Yes, they are implementing a lot of .NET stuff. This will
make it easier for Windows developers, etc. to port should they choose -
but that is not the primary goal. The main attraction for Miguel to .NET
was not cross platform so much as it was the multiple language support.
This is has been a goal of the Gnome team for quite sometime - and MS
handed the means to that end on a silver platter. The fact that many (not
all) apps can/will be able to run on mono unchanged is just a bonus.
[Original message clipped]
MS already provides managed binding for DirectX for .NET. And Mono is
providing OpenGL binding (TAO - which also works on windows by the way, in
fact that was where it was originally developed). If a developer wants to
be portable - he'll use TAO. If not, he'll use DirectX. Portablity in C#
is a choice - not a requirement.
[Original message clipped]
Um, yes it will be. They are working on System.Drawing, etc. It is
necessary for System.Windows.Forms.
[Original message clipped]
Wine - Wine Is Not an Emulator. Wine is a Linux native reimplementation of
the Win32 API. As such, I would say it is indeed a first class citizen.
[Original message clipped]
It isn't necessary, nor is it confusing. Again, Miguel was more interested
in the ability of .NET to allow multiple languages to work together
seemlessly then cross platform compatability. All you have to do is read
the FAQ. Mono is about providing a great development platform for Linux -
and one that will hopefully attract more ISV to write applications for
Linux. So, it is nice that Mono is attempting to be as compatable as
possible with .NET - but in the end it isn't what it's all about.
[Original message clipped]
Possible - but I highly doubt it. Guess will see.
[Original message clipped]
Maybe - but I doubt it.
--
Tom Shelton
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| Abraham Lincoln |
Rob S. Pierre wrote:
[Original message clipped]
No, it's the first step in building a unified OS/OM.
And a good one at that..but it will have to be improved far beyond the early
micro$oft specifications...
--
w:4
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| Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz |
begin In <38skrp15inn9$.m6fdoavqp25z$.Click here to reveal e-mail address>, on 06/13/2004
at 11:46 PM, Tom Shelton <Click here to reveal e-mail address> said:
[Original message clipped]
And doesn't run on others. Certainly not on as many platforms as,
e.g., Java, Perl. To say nothing of not relying on proprietary
protocols.
[Original message clipped]
If your grandmother had wheels she'd be a wagon. The fact is, as you
admit, that Java does have implimentations on far more platforms than
C# does.
>Java wasn't always as cross platform as it is today....
And m$ is now playing catch up.
--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz, SysProg and JOAT
Unsolicited bulk E-mail will be subject to legal action. I reserve
the right to publicly post or ridicule any abusive E-mail.
Reply to domain Patriot dot net user shmuel+news to contact me. Do
not reply to Click here to reveal e-mail address
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| Tom Shelton |
On Tue, 22 Jun 2004 22:06:18 -0300, Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz wrote:
[Original message clipped]
What proprietary protocols? XML? SOAP? A type system defined by the ECMA
and the ISO?
[Original message clipped]
But it does have implementations on other platforms.... So, it is cross
platform. All that is required to run on your z/OS is someone to port the
runtime - just like what happened with Java.
[Original message clipped]
MS isn't doing anything - they're not porting to other OS's :)
--
Tom Shelton
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| Frank Szendzielarz |
Hi,
I think the .NET Framework is a facade pattern, part of MS's strategy towards its own structure, to keep apps dev separate from OS and in anticipation of its own breakup, amongst other things. To help with its own planning, to facilitate OS dev in isolation of its software base. (Re: death of the win api?). They may not be porting things to other OS's but I think they want software to run independent of types and versions of their own OS's.
.NET on the whole is apt for all business sizes and I believe it is a way of targeting the server market and the enterprise while still being able to look like the mid-size company is the focus. I see MS being the dominant force in the server and enterprise scene in the next 5 to 10 years, in everything from apps and web servers to datawarehousing and CRM, and I see ".NET" (basically the current bundle of integrated server apps from MS) as being the "platform" of the future.
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| Frank Szendzielarz |
Hi,
I think the .NET Framework is a facade pattern, part of MS's strategy towards its own structure, to keep apps dev separate from OS and in anticipation of its own breakup, amongst other things. To help with its own planning, to facilitate OS dev in isolation of its software base. (Re: death of the win api?). They may not be porting things to other OS's but I think they want software to run independent of types and versions of their own OS's.
.NET on the whole is apt for all business sizes and I believe it is a way of targeting the server market and the enterprise while still being able to look like the mid-size company is the focus. I see MS being the dominant force in the server and enterprise scene in the next 5 to 10 years, in everything from apps and web servers to datawarehousing and CRM, and I see ".NET" (basically the current bundle of integrated server apps from MS) as being the "platform" of the future.
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| Frank Szendzielarz |
Hi,
I think the .NET Framework is a facade pattern, part of MS's strategy towards its own structure, to keep apps dev separate from OS and in anticipation of its own breakup, amongst other things. To help with its own planning, to facilitate OS dev in isolation of its software base. (Re: death of the win api?). They may not be porting things to other OS's but I think they want software to run independent of types and versions of their own OS's.
.NET on the whole is apt for all business sizes and I believe it is a way of targeting the server market and the enterprise while still being able to look like the mid-size company is the focus. I see MS being the dominant force in the server and enterprise scene in the next 5 to 10 years, in everything from apps and web servers to datawarehousing and CRM, and I see ".NET" (basically the current bundle of integrated server apps from MS) as being the "platform" of the future.
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| Frank Szendzielarz |
Hi,
I think the .NET Framework is a facade pattern, part of MS's strategy towards its own structure, to keep apps dev separate from OS and in anticipation of its own breakup, amongst other things. To help with its own planning, to facilitate OS dev in isolation of its software base. (Re: death of the win api?). They may not be porting things to other OS's but I think they want software to run independent of types and versions of their own OS's.
.NET on the whole is apt for all business sizes and I believe it is a way of targeting the server market and the enterprise while still being able to look like the mid-size company is the focus. I see MS being the dominant force in the server and enterprise scene in the next 5 to 10 years, in everything from apps and web servers to datawarehousing and CRM, and I see ".NET" (basically the current bundle of integrated server apps from MS) as being the "platform" of the future.
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| Frank Szendzielarz |
Hi,
I think the .NET Framework is a facade pattern, part of MS's strategy towards its own structure, to keep apps dev separate from OS and in anticipation of its own breakup, amongst other things. To help with its own planning, to facilitate OS dev in isolation of its software base. (Re: death of the win api?). They may not be porting things to other OS's but I think they want software to run independent of types and versions of their own OS's.
.NET on the whole is apt for all business sizes and I believe it is a way of targeting the server market and the enterprise while still being able to look like the mid-size company is the focus. I see MS being the dominant force in the server and enterprise scene in the next 5 to 10 years, in everything from apps and web servers to datawarehousing and CRM, and I see ".NET" (basically the current bundle of integrated server apps from MS) as being the "platform" of the future.
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| Roedy Green |
On Wed, 2 Jun 2004 20:31:24 -0700, "BeastFish"
<Click here to reveal e-mail address> wrote or quoted :
[Original message clipped]
This sounds like the racist clap trap I heard as a child that the
Japanese were only capable of mindlessly copying. They ended up
surpassing America in quality.
There is nothing to stop a repeat with software in India.
They have a major advantage -- a lower cost of living.
--
Canadian Mind Products, Roedy Green.
Coaching, problem solving, economical contract programming.
See http://mindprod.com/jgloss/jgloss.html for The Java Glossary.
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| BeastFish |
[Original message clipped]
The way things are today in regards to outsourcees has NOTHING to do with
race, and to imply as such is either an attempt at baiting such an issue or
the result of selecive reading or ignorance. It's about the evolution of
their respective technology economies. The computer industry in counties
like India and China are reletively new to those countries at this time,
compared to other countries that have a computer industry of 40+ years.
They are basically in their first generation of the industry. Regarding
China, I have first-hand knowledge of this. I have been to China several
times, and have had the opportunity to "talk shop" with some industry
professionals and professors while there (usually with the assistance of my
wife as translator since my Mandarin is virtually non-existant). They were
very eager to hear stories of "ancient history"... punch cards, CRTs, when
hard drives the size of a washing machine with 300mb platter packs were
"cutting edge", etc.
Much of the outsourcee "code factories" and services in these countries were
founded by and are owned by western businessmen. American, Canadian,
European businessmen that have taken the opportunity to leverage the lower
cost of living factor of these countries into a high profit margin for
themselves at a time when cost-cutting and maximizing profit margins became
the trend-du-jour of western corporations. And while many of those
businessmen are maximizing profits even more by cutting back on such things
as QA (so they can pack in more projects), the programmers are gaining
knowledge by experience that will benefit them in the long run (many who
will become wealthy themselves when they start their own home-grown
businesses).
> There is nothing to stop a repeat with software in India.
Did you read the last paragraph of my post? Business, economic, and
technology analyst expect India to surpass the west and become the software
technology leader of the world within 10 years. They will shed the first
generation of western-owned tech businesses as their tech industry as a
whole gains experience and home-grown venture capital/entrepreneurs becomes
more prevelent. The evolution of their technology economy.
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| White City |
On Thu, 03 Jun 2004 14:09:58 -0700, BeastFish wrote:
[Original message clipped]
No only that -- but long term, if we help these 'markets' get technology,
with their large populations, in India and China, eventually they will
*consume* technology and we can export to them (!)
So, one can think of /outsourcing/ as *priming* the pump.
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| J French |
On Thu, 03 Jun 2004 18:52:06 GMT, White City <Click here to reveal e-mail address>
wrote:
[Original message clipped]
A nice idea, but a bit like selling automobiles to Japan
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| Napoleon Bonaparte XIV |
J French wrote:
> A nice idea, but a bit like selling automobiles to Japan
No. A bit like letting the Japanese build an automotive industry which then
builds capital and lets U.S. sell computers and hardware to them.
Remember, Japan has little or no native computer/software industry.
--
w:4
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| J French |
On Thu, 03 Jun 2004 00:49:59 GMT, Roedy Green
<Click here to reveal e-mail address> wrote:
[Original message clipped]
It does not sound like 'racist clap trap' to me
Perhaps 'ageist' clap trap
- provided one believes that it is clap trap that people learn through
experience ...
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| Michael N. Christoff |
"Roedy Green" <Click here to reveal e-mail address> wrote in message
news:Click here to reveal e-mail address...
[Original message clipped]
I'm not sure if he was being rascist. He didn't say Indians do not know the
'whys', he said that the typical hire is usually a recent college grad
because they can demand less compensation. Most recent college grads do not
know all the 'whys' yet (due to lack of experience), no matter what country
they're from. Lack of experience does not equate to lack of potential.
l8r, Mike N. Christoff
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| Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz |
begin In <c9jv57$jig$Click here to reveal e-mail address>, on 06/02/2004
at 08:21 AM, "Mike Williams" <Click here to reveal e-mail address> said:
[Original message clipped]
All generalizations are false, including this one. Some have a
language problem, some don't. There are more substantive issues than
that straw dummy.
--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz, SysProg and JOAT
Unsolicited bulk E-mail will be subject to legal action. I reserve
the right to publicly post or ridicule any abusive E-mail.
Reply to domain Patriot dot net user shmuel+news to contact me. Do
not reply to Click here to reveal e-mail address
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| asj |
Hot Tamales ! <Click here to reveal e-mail address> wrote in message > You miss my point.
[Original message clipped]
heheh....sophisticated platforms? with garbage collection (oh, yeah,
that thing that's been here for decades now)? LOL...you actually prove
the point of low-level brains doing code, eh ;-)
but that does not obviate the need for high level brains creating
robust code...would eBay entrust its Java (J2EE) backend to a code
junkie who can only crank out code without really knowing it in
detail?
also, indian programmers are not just "reasonably competent"...they
are actually arguably better trained than people here in the USA or
Europe, simply because they may have a better motivation to become
very good at what they do. some friends of mine are indian and they
are most likely smarter than you too, and more competent.
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| Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz |
begin In <Click here to reveal e-mail address>, on
06/02/2004
at 12:43 AM, Hot Tamales ! <Click here to reveal e-mail address> said:
>Are most programmers really that 'qualified'
Are most managers?
>I think there are a lot of *fakers* amoung us...
Sturgeon's law.
[Original message clipped]
And you'll get what you paid for.
[Original message clipped]
It requires even more. And you don't seem to grasp what was needed in
the past and why; there's a difference between coding and programming.
[Original message clipped]
Stability is not something that you bolt on, no matter what Redmond
told you. If you want stability, you need to design for it ab initio.
>But nobody would have to worry about null pointers, for instance,
What gives you that idea?
>so why pay big bucks ?
No reason; you can always let the customer debug it.
--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz, SysProg and JOAT
Unsolicited bulk E-mail will be subject to legal action. I reserve
the right to publicly post or ridicule any abusive E-mail.
Reply to domain Patriot dot net user shmuel+news to contact me. Do
not reply to Click here to reveal e-mail address
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| I R T |
"Jörn W. Janneck" <jwjanneck at yahoo dot com> writes:
[Original message clipped]
The other option is to outsource to places with lower wages
and trained developers.
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| Jeff Relf |
Hi Hot Tamales !,
Re: Your endless envy.
You commented,
" Should programmers be paid like
customer service representatives rather than demigods ? "
I make 400 per month ... Is that low enough for you ?
Don't mistake lottery ticket stock options of yester year
with what the typical C++ programmer makes.
C++ programming is just plain fun.
Money is not the issue. ( And stop envying so much )
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| Hot Tamales ! |
On Tue, 01 Jun 2004 16:13:27 -0700, Jeff Relf wrote:
[Original message clipped]
I just checked my portfolio.
Internet and technology stocks have netted me a loss of approximately 20%.
FCEL, my one energy investment, has netted me a gain of 20%.
I think Energy ( cells, hydrogen, renewable, even nuclear ) are the next
wave.
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| Jeff Relf |
Hi Hot Tamales !,
You related another gem ( What a guy ),
" Internet and technology stocks
have netted me a loss of approximately 20%.
FCEL, my one energy investment,
has netted me a gain of 20%.
I think Energy
( cells, hydrogen, renewable, even nuclear )
are the next wave. "
The value of FCEL didn't go up,
the value of the dollar,
( i.e. the stock of the U.S. government ), went down.
I only invest in Jeff Relf, not that I'm doing any better.
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| Che Guevara |
Jeff Relf wrote:
> I only invest in Jeff Relf,
That's a bulletin board OTC stock, right ?
--
w:4
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| Jeff Brooks |
Jeff Relf wrote:
[Original message clipped]
If thats all you make as a programmer you should look for another job.
Last time I checked programmers with zero experience just out of
university make $42,000 a year.
Check out these sites:
- www.monster.com
- www.dice.com
Jeff Brooks
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| Michael N. Christoff |
"Jeff Brooks" <Click here to reveal e-mail address> wrote in message
news:qyyvc.656319$Ig.501606@pd7tw2no...
[Original message clipped]
In Canada its probably between 30-40 grand. But I agree about Jeff finding
a new job. Its one thing not to be driven by money, its another thing not
to be driven by basic survival. Isn't $4800 a year illegal in the states?
Its gotta be far less than minimum wage.
[Original message clipped]
l8r, Mike N. Christoff
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| Jeff Relf |
Hi Michael N. Christoff,
Re: My income for programming in C++.
You commented,
" It's one thing not to be driven by money,
its another thing not to be driven by basic survival. "
Basic survival ?
I live in the heart of Seattle near the Univ. of Wash.,
Everything is at my disposal here,
Tons of lush parks, water everywhere,
both fresh and salty. Breath taking vistas everywhere.
Mile after mile of pedestrian-only walk ways.
( With fantastic views )
Room after room of computers on campus,
connected to Usenet/web at 8 Mega Bits per second.
VC 6, CD burners, USB ports for flash memory, etc. .
What more could I ask for ?
You asked,
" Isn't $4800 a year illegal in the states ?
Its gotta be far less than minimum wage. "
Last year I worked a total of about 50 hours, the whole year.
I'm working a lot more than that this year,
but my hourly rate is still quite high.
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| Jamal Marley |
Jeff Relf, decry:
[Original message clipped]
Jeff, polishing monkey tails is fine if you want to live in a dumpster all
day -- but obviously, all those years of training as an Ada programmer,
have caused you to decend to sub-poverty levels.
Idea: Go to amazon and order one of those Wrox c# sharp books that used to
sell for $70 in 2002, and now is selling for $5 in the 'New & Used' section.
You'll then have a marketable skill as a technical writer ( programming c#
will come much later, once you have shown some degree of competence ).
--
w:4
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| Jeff Relf |
Hi Jamal Marley ( John ),
Once again, you are projecting John.
You are the one who loves Ada,
and every other fly-by-night language ( e.g. C# ),
not me.
Ada was a big government thing,
just like ten thousand dollar toilets ... and Linux.
You are the one who is full of envy and horniness, not me.
Unlike you, I love my life.
Horny dudes like you get in big trouble, it's inevitable.
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| Michael N. Christoff |
"Jeff Relf" <Click here to reveal e-mail address> wrote in message
news:1dzxg1kqu1txl$.Click here to reveal e-mail address...
[Original message clipped]
Well, as long as you're happy (AND eating!!).
l8r, Mike N. Christoff
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| Jeff Relf |
Hi Michael N. Christoff,
Re: My very low annual income.
You commented,
" Well, as long as you're happy ( AND eating !! ). "
How could a lack of food ever Ever be a problem Anywhere ?
I've spent most of my life trying not to overeat.
( I'm just over 6 foot and 163 pounds
See my web site for a picture:
http://www.NCPlus.NET/~jeff_relf/ )
The idea of a lack of food in Seattle
is incomprehensible to me.
Rent is a much bigger issue.
However, I'm only pay 250 dollars per month.
It's a basement room in Seattle's U-District.
Homes here cost 700 thousand and up.
It's a damn fine neighborhood, I say.
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| White City |
On Thu, 03 Jun 2004 10:49:22 -0700, Jeff Relf wrote:
[Original message clipped]
One of my best friends, Brian ( I'm not sure if he's still alive or not )
said that we should think of things like GNP and income as not what
we get, but what we *owe*
That is, the more money we take out of the system -- the resources spent
on us...the more that we personally /owe/ the Earth, the rest of people
and so on...
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| Jeff Relf |
Hi White City,
Re: Consuming less.
You related,
" One of my best friends, Brian
( I'm not sure if he's still alive or not )
said that we should think of things like GNP and income
as not what we get, but what we * owe * ".
The GDP measures how fast we are consuming.
Just maximizing one's consumption is Not a worthy goal.
Control should be the only goal, I maintain.
Live fast, die fast.
Feed a rat, or any organism, more
and that will reduce it's longevity.
That's not soft science either ... it's a Hard fact.
Per pound,
Squirrels consume oxygen 7 times faster than a horse.
So they only live one seventh as long.
Drone bees ( males which basically do nothing )
live for a few months.
Worker bees ( females who forage ) die in a week or so.
This rate of living theory even applies to inanimate objects.
e.g. Puff that cigarette faster and it won't last as long.
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| White City |
On Thu, 03 Jun 2004 14:14:02 -0700, Jeff Relf wrote:
[Original message clipped]
Right...but then the CO should minimize oxygen consumption and make people
live longer...
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| Jeff Relf |
Hi White City, M.D,
You mentioned that 4 out of 5 doctors recommend:
" Clean, Refreshing and Healthy 'Smoke' ".
We already have the special Olympics ...
Why not a Smokers Olympics ?
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| Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz |
begin In <Click here to reveal e-mail address>, on
06/01/2004
at 10:15 PM, Hot Tamales ! <Click here to reveal e-mail address> said:
>As much as *programmers* want stability in the tools,
Which programmers? Lots of programmers want better tools. They just
don't want change for the sake of change.
[Original message clipped]
Or, at least, that's the story that they swallowed hook, line and
sinker. Sometimes it turns out that quality goes down and that the
cost of an equivalent level of service is much higher.
>Is it a big mistake ?
It's always a big mistake to make decisions based on wishful thinking
and fads.
[Original message clipped]
Should you stop beating your wife or cheating on your income taxes?
Programmers were never paid like demigods, or even like celebrities
and CEOs. When you start seeing programmers with 6 digit salaries, or
even a significant number with six digit salaries, then you may have
something vaguely approaching a justification for using that term.
--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz, SysProg and JOAT
Unsolicited bulk E-mail will be subject to legal action. I reserve
the right to publicly post or ridicule any abusive E-mail.
Reply to domain Patriot dot net user shmuel+news to contact me. Do
not reply to Click here to reveal e-mail address
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| Jeff Relf |
Hi asj,
You wrote,
" And with Apache releasing its own Java app server,
^^^
the demand for open source Java developers
continues to grow ! "
Make that Applet server ... There's a Big difference.
And C++ would make better applets, In my opinion.
( Yes, C++ can be open source and cross-platform too )
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| Herfried K. Wagner [MVP] (VIP) |
* Click here to reveal e-mail address (asj) scripsit:
[Original message clipped]
If I were a Java programmer, I would not need that. Much more important
is a fix to Java's crippled event model (that's only one example).
--
Herfried K. Wagner [MVP]
<URL:http://dotnet.mvps.org/>
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| asj |
hehehe...of course, the good old days are far from here, now that the
dotcom bubble has thoroughly burst. This study from australia
complements other studies in USA and Europe that show Java again
leading the way in robust job growth.
i guess the days when you could call c-sharp a "java-killer" with a
straight face are long gone, eh? bwahahahabwahahaha!!!!!
--------------------------------------
Experts in Java, Unix or Oracle should have no trouble finding work,
according to the results of a skills survey.
IT&T recruiter Ambit's six-monthly series measures skills required for
roles advertised on Jobnet, the Australian IT&T career site.
According to the series, people with Java experience are in top
demand, with 8.5 percent of all Jobnet advertisers requiring these
skills. Visual Basic experts came second with 6.1 percent of jobs
advertised needing their expertise. C++ professionals are third most
sought after with 4.8 percent of IT&T employers wanting them.
Peter Butterss, Ambit Group's executive director, said although the
demand for Java skills had dropped since peaking in February 2001 with
a 15.6 percent demand, it still remains high.
"The key reason for this stems from Java continuing to be the
preferred development platform because of its scalability and its
ability to operate with other platforms within the client and server
space," Butterss said.
"As a result it is widely used in the banking and telecommunications
sectors and is the most commonly used development platform for
customer marketing- particularly where online browsing or problem
management is concerned."
Butterss advises that Java language programmers update their Java
skills in both the client and server areas.
"From an interface perspective, Swing is worthwhile investigating and
on the server side, Servlets APIs are good," he said.
http://www.linuxworld.com.au/index.php/id;1701743130;fp;2;fpid;1
Click here to reveal e-mail address (asj) wrote in message news:<Click here to reveal e-mail address>...
[Original message clipped]
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| Eddie de Bear (VIP) |
Advertised on Jobnet..
It's an interesting figure sure, however let me tell you somethign about jobnet..
Jobnet is run buy a recruitment agency. Recruitment agencies generally don't post job advertesments untill they have checked their own databases for suitable candidates.
So the real question is: Is java in high demand, or are there just not alot of java developers registered with the agency running jobnet??
Just something to think about...
Cheers
--
Eddie de Bear
MCSD
"asj" wrote:
[Original message clipped]
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| One Handed Man \( OHM - Terry Burns \) |
Java will never be supreme IMHO. Who wants a switch stament which only does
ordinals for example. Give me select case anyday !
Java's good if you wear open toed sandals and like to caress your Spark
workstation ( or whatever ) on a worknight when everyone has gone home.
Bwhhhhaahhhhhwaahhhahhhha !!!!
--
OHM ( Terry Burns )
. . . One-Handed-Man . . .
"asj" <Click here to reveal e-mail address> wrote in message
news:Click here to reveal e-mail address...
[Original message clipped]
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| Cor Ligthert |
LOL
[Original message clipped]
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| Hans Eekels |
I suggest we stop this threat:
* It's to long (most replay's are out of my window);
* It has (now) nothing to do with VB;
* It started serious, but it's ending (like mor long discussions) in call
someone names.
HE
"asj" <Click here to reveal e-mail address> schreef in bericht
news:Click here to reveal e-mail address...
[Original message clipped]
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BootFX
Reliable and powerful .NET application framework. |
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